10 Years Since Narrowly Escaping Death: Church Split
Ten years ago today this church split. It happened on a Sunday. I walked blindly into an ambush of grand proportions. People who had planned and prepared to overthrow this church’s leadership had everything ready. I didn’t even notice, I was so distraught, but there was a video camera set up at the back and microphones poised to record the whole take-down. Yes, the entire fiasco is on video-tape. Certain people were ready with adversarial challenges. One of the ring-leading women came up and took the mic from my hands and wouldn’t return it. Another man came up and helped her steer the service in their direction. They would challenge me with their demands while their friends and family would stand and cheer and clap and shout out their defiance. With the entire leadership team beside me (minus a significant and influential one), as well as Lisa, we finally and fearfully said a firm no, knowing full well what cost it was going to extract from our church and our very souls! There was weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Chairs crashed and flew. Yelling, screaming, crying. Children hid their faces and visitors gaped in stupefied wonder. This can’t be happening! But it was. That Sunday initiated a split in our church that swiftly and brutally tore half of our community away. Over the next two years we gradually and painfully lost another half again. I thought many times that we weren’t going to make it, that our death knell had surely tolled.
Continually it was predicted and prophesied that we would surely shrivel up and die under the curse of Satan and the absence of the Spirit and the judgment of the Lord. But here we are, ten years later, still standing. I wouldn’t want to go through it again. But I wouldn’t want to go back to the way we were before. May I dare say we are better for it? So congratulate us. God be praised, this community deserves it.
The painting is the creation of my friend Tina Newlove.
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Congratulations. We’ve been there. Our ambush happened on Easter Sunday too. It was definately not “sweet home Alabama”. It’s been 20 years after the fact for us, and we are indeed better for it. So you have my heartfelt congratulations. A lot of folks don’t survive something like that. You must have a great group of people around you.
indeed. thanks amber.
Funny thing is… is that all we’re doing is to
A) Bring glory to God
B) Get his bride ready and primped up for the wedding
Interesting what flesh does… and yet God doesn’t stop his pursuit of both because it must happen, and He couldn’t care less who gets it… He’ll use whomever is willing
many congratulations!!!
did dave carrol say ‘get his bride ‘pimped’ up’? now i do have a vision!
What’s the difference or line between this stuff (which is worse than “unfortunate”) and dialogue -> dissent?
This wasn’t dialogue. It was dissent, but not in the spirit of unity but division. They chose to split off and leave. I wished for most of them not to leave, and when they did, for them to return. There are a few I wouldn’t want back because I consider them abusive towards others.
You should market the video as “How Not to do Church”! I’ve experienced some pretty unbelievable things in churches myself, it is amazing how screwed up we can be sometimes. God have mercy.
I think Frank’s idea for a video is hilarious!
One of my former pastors coauthored a book called “Simple Church.” The irony is that the underlying “hidden agenda” and “unwritten rules” at his church are very complicated. Well, they are complicated for any non staff member who wants to have a voice.
No church is simple unless you hand your car keys over to the leadership and take a nap during the ride. And then it’s only simple until the car crashes or quits running.
Wow, that sounds incredibly traumatic, I feel for you and your church. So often people people believe that the end justifies the means in these sorts of situations. Process people! Differences of opinion and outright impossible-to-work-out disagreement can happen, but how people handle these things shows their true level of spiritual maturity. I have seen the process of dissent and division handled in a God honoring way and it was still very sad, but you could tell both sides were trying their best to honor God (and each other)in it. Much more often I have seen what it sounds you have gone through . . .
a dark valley, indeed…
but how great for you that you persevered and now stand strong to serve your God.
I have a post, about a church split, that I’ve started about 100 times, but have never finished because of all that it drags up within me.
I always look back and wonder how God views two groups of people so opposed ideologically, but each claiming that the other is being deceived by Satan,
I might just finish that post yet.
Dave, did this happen in Canada? Isn’t that where you are? I can see it happening down here in southeastern USA, but for some reason I picture Canadians being a tad more thoughtful, open minded.
Terri: I always look back and wonder how God views two groups of people so opposed ideologically, but each claiming that the other is being deceived by Satan…
Terri, your thoughts on two groups of people, both praying to the same Christian God, then pointing their rifles at each other and shooting…?
WOW! Scary–and I’ve seen it all before as well; been through it, even. YUCK! I appreciate you telling the story and your perspectives on these as well as many matters on the community of faith.
Just letting you know that I’m still here reading, although I shy away from commenting. You have some real go-getter-commenters here ;-D.
The painting is fantastic.
Oh–and Happy Anniversary??
Karenkool… i just want to personally encourage you to comment. you have a voice that is valid. speak up. thanks for the congrats.
It’s hard to believe it’s been ten years. I remember that day very clearly, I was shocked as I think a lot of us were. It was something I hope I do not have to witness again…some crazy s**t went on that day…
Well, from my very short experience, there are some beautiful people and great parties that have risen from the ashes!
Randy….Sort of…without the actual bloodshed…just longlasting emotional scars!
when two parties split, does that divide god? i like to think that god was on my ex-wifes side, but i’d hate to think he wasn’t also on mine.
i went through a situation where the whole church collapsed and that was traumatic enough (your situation sounds absolutely horrendous… i wouldn’t want to think of anyone going through that!). the amazing thing is, that much of the fallout from my old church are still very much in fellowship with each other in less formal ways… we still play a big part in each others lives and many are now pretty well known in christendom, doing some radical stuff. i still don’t fully understand why it all fell apart, it wasn’t lack of commitment… got me thinking about it all again.
wow…glad to hear that you had persevered how easily can we hurt one another in the name of Jesus…
wow. that’s just….wow. I’ve been part of some messy shit in “the church” but….wow.
people “splitting” is not necessarily a bad thing and doesn’t necessarily make them “divisive” but a little decorum might be in order.. I’m just stunned by your experience and so repulsed by that behavior.
when in an earlier comment a thread or so ago i said i thought dissent was good… i wasn’t meaning this. this is clanging cymbal stuff, loveless!
i have been impressed by the one or two voices i’ve heard from your community on this blog and it seems like you kept some excellent people… long may you all grow and thrive in love!
it is an incredible community… very diverse and weird, but beautiful. thanks all.
Note:
I SHOULD have said “pimped”
I love the painting!
Bravely and graciously posted Dave. Well done. It’s been almost 10 years since our split but it wasn’t an ambush. Honestly I perversely love that it was video taped, it would be exactly the kind of thing I’d love to pull out on an anniversary like this one, pour a glass of wine and re-watch with a couple really good friends. I go with Woody Allen’s tragedy+time= comedy equation and would do a little MST 3000 treatment to it.
I’ll add my voice to those who are glad you’ve survived and then some.
still standing bro!…and even better days to come.
I can’t help but ponder how many visitors never set foot in a church again after a display like that. In the manner it was done with the addition of a camera recording everything, this comes off more like the advancement of a personal agenda rather than for the glory of the Kingdom. Even if they had valid concerns and ideas, their message was lost in the execution. If folks can learn anything from this, I hope that it is that dissent doesn’t have to break. It can heal, mature, lift up, and improve. The litmus test should be( in my humble opinion) “Does this reflect the love of Christ”? If not, maybe its time to pause and reflect on the issue and figure out how to settle it in a way that does. Thanks for sharing what is obviously a painful memory for our possible benefit. The long term benefit, it seems, is not one but two strong communities. One there in Canada, and this one here in cyberspace.
I keep erasing attempts at a comment.
Just can’t imagine the ambush. Can’t imagine all the deceit that would have had to have gone on ahead of time. None of it.
I’m thankful to see that much has healed in the meantime…
Peace
chris… well said.
what a cruel Sunday morning that must have been. i am so thankful you survived–and more than that, are now thriving.
it’s amazing that someone who has been treated with cruelty can rise from the ashes with such beauty and compassion for others.
that alone is a testament to God’s blessing on your ministry.
peace and congratulations to you & yours.
p.s. Chris—I like your litmus test.
Such debacles are highly lamentable. So glad to hear that you’re 10 years on from all that devastating impoverishment and now are thriving.
God be with you.
Praise God. That is it, you are still standing. Amen.
“they” call it ‘D-day’, the day the bomb dropped.
Reading your blog made me realize how very little I remember about that day, I basically had only remembered one lady wailing her head off. Reading what you shared though, I remember each of those things happening. All hell broke loose that day.. and I’m disgusted to think it’s on video. Who’d want to watch that again? I know it is something “they” pride themselves on believing that they were in the center of God’s will. I personally think they were in the center of adoration of a particular man.
I was 24 then.. young and niave. Wow.. ten years. I’m grateful that the words held no power and that RV has had a heartbeat and does have a heartbeat and God does show up and He is in our midst. I’m grateful that I came back home and that I am a part of this thriving community.
I really thought the last tear was shed, and then read your blog. I have been for many years ,thankful I wasnt there that day, and for many years wished I was. Above all, grateful I’m still here now. Community………..beauty for ashes.
Congrats Dave! And where can I get that tape?
What a reminder of how far we can be from understanding what Jesus intended. Thanks Dave and company for hanging in there. May more blessings come from what you’ve learned.
Wow - well written and amazed at how the Body of Christ cannibalizes itself at times…
So glad to hear that there has been beauty from ashes. We gone through a few ash heaps ourselves, but never was it caught on video. Just shocking how some feel so justified in their positions to churn up everyone and be so proud of it to catch it on re-runs.
Think I was living in Kansas City at that time so could you make copies and sell them on ebay? Or maybe the next time I get home we can watch it together over a corona… I do remember hearing all about it from my sisters and, as that dude from Mad TV says - it was “crazy, crazy as hell”!
Forget ebay David, put it on youtube! Kidding (well not really)!!! Seroiusly tho, I can’t tell you how refreshing it is, whenever I get home, being there with y’all and how healing it is to my soul. I don’t think the south has a grid for what you have, I mean after all, it is the Bible belt… I mean religion buckle… I mean death grip… you get the point!
It still makes me shudder. I finished leading worship, walked off the stage and promptly removed myself to the parking lot (where I attempted to quell the nausea with deep breathing). That day,and the months that followed changed my personality. It has taken this many years to be free of the inappropriate comments, suggestions and curses.
Seeing what our community has become, I would do it all again.
david, on my list of hero’s … your in my top 5.
Eight months ago I was on staff at a church until they went through a split of sorts. Our senior pastor left to go to another church and most of the people exited the community at that point. For about six months I wanted to leave church work all together and never do it again. God’s got this funny way of healing our hearts and I’m almost less bitter about it today.
david
good to have coffee with you the other day. these can be painful things. they are hard to forget. i do believe though, that time causes us to remember things differently. we forget all of the nuances involved. the people that left are excellent people…strangely, they felt pushed out. the people that stayed are excellent people…i’ve talked to some of them. hopefully they have all accepted histiory for what it is…history.
i heard of the pain of it from a distance. i grieved at the implosion of something that i had careully monitored for 10 years. knowing what rothesay vineyard is now…i would have taken greater risk when i was there. that’s a different kind of pain.
any seeds that i may have planted while still pastor, i apologize for. believe me…my desire was for good and not evil. my dream was that the church would continue to grow, and that i would have relationship with those involved. i too…was cut off…from you and the craft of my heart. the loss of your friendship and those i loved was severe.
5/25 wasn’t as finely constructed as you suppose. people will sometimes rise up when they feel oppressed…ask martin luther. it’s not over. obviously, more challenges will come your way in the future. you will be shaped by your choices…good and bad. hopefully at the 20th anniversary, it will all be the subject of a humorous cartoon! i hope you can all resolve your history and walk in harmony…but my experience says it won’t be so. sad…sad for the region. we have chosen the wrong enemies…
you lost much that year, and it has rocked the world of many people. i experienced something similar 23 years ago. i would never have chosen it, but my choices created it. it has shaped my personality for better and for worse. i would “will” it upon nobody, yet cherish it as one of the top five most defining moments of my life.
when i left rothesay vineyard, i left it to your guidance under the lord’s command. only you can steer it to a place of kingdom influence in that region. put your hand to the plow david, and…
Hey Steve
I was wondering what you mean by this comment…”knowing what rothesay vineyard is now…” Sounds like you think Rv is not what it should be….
Steve, I don’t know if you will even see this post, but I must respond to what you have written.
Ten years have passed and my personality has also been shaped for better and for worse…but it took me years to reap the better. You are correct in that there are always two sides to every story. Here is my side:
I was twenty-two years old and fresh out of YWAM. I was a new worship leader (something I am still doing almost eleven years later) and my heart was only for Jesus. I was committed to serving my church family and had a healthy relationship with the church leadership and my pastor. To have my friendship with “the Pastor” called into question by you and others, insinuations made that it was an inappropriate and even immoral relationship was incredibly life changing — life altering, life destroying. That was an event that most certainly shaped me for the worse, as slander and judgment always do.
I hope by your comment “knowing what Rothesay Vineyard is now…” you are not implying anything negative. I love my church family. The only reason I am thankful for what happened ten years ago is that it crushed us. Pride and false humility also died. What was left, and what STILL exists, is a community of people who value authenticity. We are individuals who love Jesus and serve him with our whole hearts. If we are not to your taste, so be it…to each their own. I’m tired of feeling judged by you. As for laughing about it all in another ten years, I can’t see it happening. Though I have forgiven, healed and most certainly moved on, it is not an event that I find humourous. That is my side of the story.
I hope that you and your family are well. I had heard you were ill and I am relieved to know that you are now in good health. Take care.
Ellen (Compton) Tremblay
Steve, I too have to disagree with you. This isn’t something that will ever be in cartoon form or provide a laugh for me. And yet the beauty that has come from it with God’s grace is amazing. Somehow it always seems as though the aftermath is that we some how never measure up now… but to whose measurements is what I want to know.
I’m so thankful to be a part of a body of Christ that doesn’t eat it’s own. Because even after the split, these same people continue to eat their own. To consider it just “history” seems to somehow excuse it and I for one am not at that place right now to be able to do that. Maybe one day I will see it as history. Having experienced the fullmath of this myself ten years later, I am experiencing the pain and heartbreak of it all much later than those who first experienced it. I am not going to pretend that I am not bothered and still dealing with things.. because I am. I’ll be real in the midst of it and I pray to get over it and to love in the midst no matter the cost.
13. Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.
14. But if you have bitter envy and selfseeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.
15. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual , demonic.
16. For where envy and selfseeking exist, confusion and every evil thing will be there.
17. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
18. Now the fruit of righteous is sown in peace by those who make peace.
James 3:13-18
Quote from Steve Witt, ” i do believe though, that time causes us to remember things differently”
I have recently seen how very true this statement is. It utterly amazes me to almost feeling stupified at how time can cause a group of people to remember things that were as though they weren’t. How someone can conveniently remember something in a way that makes them look better than was truthfully so. Wow.. how does that happen??? Please someone tell me.
How did what was an ambush take down (in my opinion) turn into “they were asked to leave”??? Ummm huh?? How did my being asked to not even return to visit Grace Harvest become “we never told her she wasn’t welcome”???? Ummm huh?? The same spirit at work both times. The same denial and utter ability to remember something in a convenient way that denies what truly happened.
Ok, taking a deep breath.. how can people think it’s over?? Such a devastating event that has changed so many people’s outlooks, lives, thoughts, relationships… does one ever let those things go and regain or become as though they once were… NO! Do we learn, grow and move on.. yes. But to deny it was real and it IS real does nothing but deny what truly happened, it keeps people from facing and confronting what they truly did. Just bury it and if you can’t see it then it doesn’t exist. Well guess what, my life’s affected by it and I’m not going to deny it. You (the group.. Grace Harvest) messed with my heart, you messed with my life, I am unable to forget that but I pray in time that I will fully (even more than now) forgive and heal.
Sorry to have gone on so long, just had some things that I needed to get out I guess.
great…i hope everyone feels better now! lets move on…
ps….dave…what do you think?
is that said how it sounds??
excuse me david for continuing to post on this thread… but that just pissed me off. somehow my venting is suppose to make me feel better and now suddenly just move on… nah i’m not like that. it’s even harder to move on when those who have wronged you don’t even acknowledge their wrong but justify it instead to make themselves look good. if i were more like Christ i would be already over it. but i’m not.
i was not present, nor was i involved at the split. i believe ten years is enough time to see god’s hand in something and not continue to be hurt and or bitter. blog responses are poor on showing emotion, so don’t read into anything what i didn ‘t say. if you need to call me…call 440-243-9001 t-friday…9-5. i’d be more than glad to talk with anyone. we may never agree. i already apologized for anything that i might have done as pastor that hurt anyone. my response has been to dave’s blog. we met recently. dave referred to the split so i read the blog. dave has disagreed with me and i with him, but we are able to share and enjoy one anothers company…that’s a good thing.
regarding laughing about the split in year 20….it was referring to daves great ability to cartoon about challenging situations. it was a response to him…sorry if you thought i was being trite. i’m comfortable sharing with him…he listens.
you are right, you were not present… therefore, my comments are not directed at you personally except for when i was addressing something that you said here in your comments to david.
i have never had a problem with you steve. my experiences of both splits with the same group of people are seperate from you… it involves those who have you on a pedistal (in my opinion).
i am glad that david listens too, it has made a huge affect in my life having him as a listening ear and a voice as well.
i will try to not read something into your comment, it just seemed very flippant. if i’m wrong i’m wrong, hasn’t been the first time.
sorry if you thot my comments were about you specifically. i have no issues with you steve. and i don’t understand your comment that 10 years is enough to see God’s hand in it. does time make something right that wasn’t?
no…but we are hopefully able to deal with it knowing that it may never be as we thought it should be.
true.
I’m in a camp by myself right now with what I am feeling and I feel a lot. Doesn’t mean what I am feeling is right nor wrong.. it just is.
And what I feel one day I may not feel the next.. but that’s life.. and we live and we learn. David, I so appreciate the open air that your blog allows. I love you and so appreciate your being there to lean on.
Wow. Dave.
I just read this now…
What was the deal? People snatching microphones? video taping? Why?
That’s crazy…
A few years after I moved away from the area, the church I was raised in went through what I consider its final split. They went through three pastors over the course of five years. In the end, at the time that several families had decided to leave, one old woman stood up in the middle of the message and shouted that the pastor was a liar, and that anyone who would stick with him should be ashamed.
Today, there is half of the people and a new pastor. Things are still shaky and the church has merged with another.
Sometimes these things don’t work themselves out, at least not for a while.