The Questions of Possibility
Sometimes I just don’t know. When I read the New Testament, it really isn’t that great a testimony to the strength and vitality of the early church. I mean, look at Jesus’ church, which started with 12. And at the pinnacle of his career they all pretty much abandoned him. Then there’s Paul’s record. Not very impressive. I mean he did get lots of churches off the ground, but I think most eventually disintegrated. John’s churches too. Read the gospel of John, The Revelation and the three epistles and you pretty much witness the erosion of church communities. I don’t think because they didn’t have church growth or maintenance skills, but because there’s a gene present in any biblical community that prevents it from growing into some kind of tower of Babel. I think the healthiest communities do not have the guarantee of permanence. So, here are some questions that have been floating around in my brain all day while I was painting:
- Is it possible to not put expectations on people and to grow as a church?
- Is it possible to not require people to tithe and increase the church budget?
- Is it possible to love unconditionally and have a church free of sin?
- Is it possible to allow dissent and to not divide as a community?
- Is it possible to emphasize relationship and remain authoritative as a pastor?
- Is it possible to allow authenticity in people and not have a chaotic community?
- Is it possible for non-drinkers and drinkers to fellowship genuinely?
- Is it possible to not have ambition as a church and be attractive to others?
- Is it possible to not expect people to work and also have others served?
- Is it possible to appear a dismal failure and even be on the same page as Jesus?
The fine art photograph is the creation of my friend Mark Hemmings.
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A while back you mentioned about quitting and I’ve been sitting on that since I read it. I have asked those closest to me, why do I feel what I do about relationships and community that leads me to failure in the very system that I love the most.
Then I read #10 today. . . and I look forward to sharing stories one day with you.
yeah, I agree Scott, I think lots of us would enjoy sharing stories.
I guess the only answer I have David is, I hope so…perhaps that’s the adventure of living well in the paradox
I think you may know me from another site so you may not like to hear this but… when I read your profile I went looking through some of my stuff just to make sure you didn’t rip it all off.
I cannot believe how much of the stuff on this site I agree with.
“Is it possible to not put expectations on people and to grow as a church?”
Yes…if taught the biblical ideal about using ‘measure’ on themself (as it is presented) - and what responsibility truly means (or as the church calls it - repentance).
“Is it possible to not require people to tithe and increase the church budget?”
Yes…people will give to causes that help people and they can see it - start a program where you help with groceries for single mothers - people will give in arm-loads! Why? They see the ‘reason’ to do so.
“Is it possible to love unconditionally and have a church free of sin?”
No…choice is so present in the human condition that obvious failure of ‘good’ choice will always happen - thus we a system where forgiveness is prized very highly - but the love part is possible.
“Is it possible to allow dissent and to not divide as a community?”
Yes…we all have differences of opinion - no 2 of us are that alike (even married people know this). But just because my wife and I disagree on things does not mean we split - no we continue the talks and eventually come to some compromise. This is how the church is explained by Paul - as a married couple - differences in opinion and all. I also think we can disagree and still be friends.
“Is it possible to emphasize relationship and remain authoritative as a pastor?”
Yes…your job as a pastor is to help guide and instruct people on the teachings of the bible - not to hold their hands (or slap it). The community as a whole should decide together what actions they will committ too - and authority should be tossed aside for concensus on issues surrounding the church (so everyone has a stake in it). By all means love me, by no means control me.
“Is it possible to allow authenticity in people and not have a chaotic community?”
Yes…Everyone is unique and brings several talents to the mix - creating a smorgasboard of talents in one single community. What needs to be underneath them is a simple foundation they can build their existence upon (ie: Jesus teachings) - where that all goes from there is in the hand of each individual and team-work exercise (even community decisions). I think to make clones is harmful for the unique person.
“Is it possible for non-drinkers and drinkers to fellowship genuinely?”
Yes…if driniking is neither a problem for the one or the other (as in addiction or something worse).
“Is it possible to not have ambition as a church and be attractive to others?”
No…if by ambition we mean having some goals or a reason to exist (to do something) then no one will come to ‘nothing’. I find nothing wrong with ‘having a goal’ or something similar to ’shoot for’ - my classic example is starting programs for the ‘poorer’ in society - like a single mother program or one for the elderly. If you start developing reasons like this to exist - people will show up gladly. I attend a church with little to no reason to exist except to have a church service - and I skip regularily (and my brother runs the church and my family attends there).
“Is it possible to not expect people to work and also have others served?”
Yes..again I think this falls back on ‘reason’ for the work. Lots of people in the church will gladly help others in need - hack even paint the church if asked (for free). I think if people see the reason for the work they are about to committ to - they usually jump in wholeheartedly. Maybe get them some pizza and pepsi afterwards though (we also like small rewards).
“Is it possible to appear a dismal failure and even be on the same page as Jesus?”
Yes…since success is not the key to this faith - values are. If church size is all it was then I would become the greatest marketer ever and sell this faith in almost any and every way possible to fill those seats (which happens already in our faith). But true faith is about this connection we develop with Jesus (via the teachings of our Rabbi) and what we do with them in our life experiences. I am a total failuire on some levels (I am not rich) - but my values are very rich and my faith is very deep - so much so I think I have developed habits of the vaues I have learned (they are my first choice in all situations - again this is still being tested).
Whew…damn dude…that was interesting.
“I think the healthiest communities do not have the guarantee of permanence.”
I would hope not. It would seem to me, that it is incumbent on the healthy community to send their numbers out to share the best parts of that church with other communities and cultures.(whether they mean to or not) I’ll hold up Sarah as a testament to this idea. A strong enough light will scatter on almost any surface. A healthy community wont really dissolve, as much as spread out to other communities.
I don’t have answers for you. But if there is an answer to No. 10 then it is my only hope.
Most things are possible if we choose to/it’s a matter of what we (all) choose to want and to believe. People as a whole I mean..Sometimes if I feel like losing hope with people, I am reminded that all things are possible with God.
Actually read today 1 Chronicles 22,where David hands on building of the ‘Temple to Solomon. He (David) did so much of the ground work, the laying of the foundations, the preparations for Solomon then to do his bit - the actual overseeing of the project, to see it come to life. Sometimes we might not see things come to life in our lifetime, but maybe..they will in the future. Maybe me thinking certain way/promoting e.g. the use of public transport or forgiving of debts to 3rd World Countries or standing against rasism -whatever it be- might take light with some other people too and spread like wildfire - you never know.
Just a few thoughts.
I won’t run through all of the points with my thoughts, just a few.
Is it possible to not require people to tithe and increase the church budget?
~> I should be because tithing is not a New Testament requirement for the body of Christ.
Is it possible to love unconditionally and have a church free of sin?
~> Understanding the difference between carnality and sin. It’s impossible to have people in a community free from carnality. However, sin means to be separated from God. There’s no way to be made a member of the Church in the first place if one is separated from God.
Is it possible to emphasize relationship and remain authoritative as a pastor?
~> No one has authority but Jesus Christ. He creates relationships.
Is it possible for non-drinkers and drinkers to fellowship genuinely?
~> Jesus caused people to drink as a result of His first miracle.
Is it possible to not expect people to work and also have others served?
~> Christ creates the workers and those workers serve God. Quite often we see people serving man.
Is it possible to not put expectations on people and to grow as a church?
Yes. but we all have expectations of each other, however unconscious. I expect my husband not to cheat on me, I expect my children to live out God’s plan for their lives, I expect my friends to make allowances for my faults… what’s to stop growth in any of that?
Is it possible to not require people to tithe and increase the church budget?
Tithing should never be a requirement but a choice. God loves a cheerful giver - I believe that. Any other expectation is man’s. God provides as God will.
Is it possible to love unconditionally and have a church free of sin?
loving unconditionally is hard. I say I want to, but when I get hurt it’s hard to love again without some kind of restoration. I’m strive for it and work on it but I will never master it. The church can never be free of sin - we are the church and we are sinful creatures, are we not? why would we need grace and forgiveness otherwise?
Is it possible to allow dissent and to not divide as a community?
yes. but division happens. and division is not always a bad thing - great growth can come from pruning. I’m a big fan of growth, as painful as it is sometimes. And it is not my intention to be flip about this subject… I understand how incredibly painful division can be and how long lasting its effects are.
Is it possible to emphasize relationship and remain authoritative as a pastor?
I don’t know, I’m not a pastor - what do you pastors think? As a sheep, I would wish relationship for you. Risk of isolation is too great, otherwise. You need us just as we need you - we are social beings. I love my pastor and seek only to support him in his calling and I hope you all have the same kind of circle around you, as well.
Is it possible to allow authenticity in people and not have a chaotic community?
Can you ‘allow’ authenticity? People have to choose it and when they do, can you really prevent it? community can be chaos, but don’t see where one is causal to the other…
Is it possible for non-drinkers and drinkers to fellowship genuinely?
yes. my alcoholism doesn’t have anything to do with anyone else - I make the decision not to pick a drink regardless of my circumstances. in church, a restaurant, someone’s home; my recovery does not check itself at the door. doesn’t matter - I make a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God evey day. have a beer if you want, hell, I’ll buy you one if I feel like it. but my God wants me to have a coke. so I will.
Is it possible to not have ambition as a church and be attractive to others?
you know what attracts me? honest worship and people who are community. ambition can have a place in that, if kept in balance (along with every other human characteristic capable of running amuck) and it serves the best interests of the community. I am ambitious to do the best I can with the gifts God has blessed me with.
Is it possible to not expect people to work and also have others served?
who does the serving if no one works? I’ve experienced some of my deepest friendships when serving alongside others. But again, people serve as God calls them. People need downtime too - to heal, to recover, to rejuvenate. You go where - and when - God leads you.
Is it possible to appear a dismal failure and even be on the same page as Jesus?
Jesus was to all appearances a dismal failure as a “Messiah” - didn’t overthrow the government, submitted to Ceasar’s what was Ceasar’s, hung out with the dregs of his society, for a time even his own family thought he had lost his mind. I have in my own life felt dismal failure and yet he still has plans for me. God knows your heart.
wow, nakedpastorman, sometimes these posts just wear me out… way too much thinking for a simple girl like me
You asked some questions, so I thoght I would weigh in on a few as well.
Is it possible to not put expectations on people and to grow as a church?
If God doesn’t frow the church, then it shouldn’t grow. Our expectations should be on Him alone.
Is it possible to not require people to tithe and increase the church budget?
I don’t believe that tithing is a New Covenent teaching and neither does our pastor. He has never preached tithing as long as I have known him and very rarely preaches about giving. Maybe 3 times in 4 years. If God leads you to do something that requires money, by faith He will provide it.
Is it possible to love unconditionally and have a church free of sin?
I’m not sure what a church free of sin looks like, but I don’t believe that loving someone unconditionally gives the lovee a license to sin.
Is it possible to allow dissent and to not divide as a community?
If by dissent you mean disagreements, I would say yes it is possible.
Is it possible to not have ambition as a church and be attractive to others?
I think a churches only ambition should be to seek the wisdom and guidance of God. There should be no human ambition involved.
Is it possible to not expect people to work and also have others served?
Yes. It is up to God to work in our hearts to will and do of His good pleasure. If our focus and trust is in Him, His spirit will lead us to serve others…not out of compulsion, but out of love.
Is it possible to appear a dismal failure and even be on the same page as Jesus?
Yes, yes, yes. Jesus doesn’t measure sucess by the same yardstick as we do. We may never see the fruits of all the things that Jesus does through us. Maybe when we get to heaven, He will be gracious and show us.
This is amazing. What you are describing is church as an organic creature, going through the life, death, rebirth process. By trying to artificially keep it alive through programs and whatnot, we have a truly man-made construction: a soulless machine.
Thank you for this post.
jesus died on the cross. correction, he was put to death… the people cried ‘crucify him, crucify him’, the lord mayor washed his hands of him… his best mates abandoned him… even his dad, the maker of the heavens and the earth abandoned him… yep, jesus… what a loser… what a failure he must have been!
i think not.
lor ~> Just wondering. If we’re sinful creatures that means that we are separated from God. How then can we be His body at the same time as being separated from Him? I think though that we have a propensity to the desires of our flesh. But either we are connected by faith to Him or separated from Him by lack of faith. Therefore, we had better not be sinful.
jovial_cynic - that’s beautiful, I love that. thank you.
jon ~> Good point! God’s human flesh became a willing sacrifice for us. Certainly not a failure.
Very thought-provoking. And a marvelous diversity of responses and opinions. Like any poll, one could quibble with the way some of the questions are loaded, but I won’t. Much.
1) I don’t know.
2) No. But I think the question is flawed.
3) No.
4) Yes.
5) Yes.
6) Yes, mostly. There will likely be a gentle undercurrent of chaos that will ebb and flow.
7) Yes, mostly.
8) I don’t know, but I am doubtful.
9) No.
10) Please, Lord, I hope so.
Hello nakedpastor,
I’ve been following your blog for awhile and I love your clever, thoughtful and faithful musings. Keep it up.
Regarding this (as well as some previous posts about loving the church the way it is)–
I’m curious what you think about how it is that people are motivated to grow in commitment and discipleship. I really do value your focus on unconditional love for the people–not disputing that. But is there also a time and place to push people?
Some of the most rewarding moments in children’s and youth ministry for me have been when I helped a child to do something she never thought she was capable of… she just needed a push, a challenge and maybe a little help.
In our congregation there are many people who tend to say “yes” to everything, so we’re probably more at risk for burnout and overcommitment than we are for laziness. Part of the reason I’m asking is because I wonder the same thing about this church–how to encourage people to grow without actually CONTRIBUTING to burnout and overcommitment.
Rod - it sounds like you and I are on the same track but maybe sematics, or I did not articulate as clearly as I would like…
I sin. As true as I try to be the example that Jesus has set for me, I fall short. Continually. I don’t always tell the truth, even if my intentions may be admirable, ie. not wanting hurt other people’s feelings. While I’m not actively stealing, I don’t always bring mistakes to the attention of the clerk either - even as it embarrasses me to admit that. I feel greed and I worry about money more than I should, sometimes to the point where I don’t trust God to provide. I am sometimes too busy looking at the speck in my friends eye while ignoring the plank in mine.
My point being, I carry all sorts of little and bigger sins that I bring before my God, pray for forgiveness and honestly try to be worthy of Him next time. He loves me, He forgives me and I try not to take that grace for granted. But I do fall short, hence what I consider to be sinful. There’s probably a better way to phrase it, but for me that’s as honest as I know how to be about it.
ooh dear… this blog is getting over run by filthy sinners! i’ll have to start rethinking who i hang out with in cyberspace… thought i could trust you lot… turns out you’re just like me, flawed… very disappointed.
:-)
Nope.
Only exception, #10
Great questions David!!
Damn, I sure hope so, otherwise we are in a lot of shit!
lor ~> Thanks for your explanation. I like to distinguish sin [being separated from God] and carnality. But I do believe that carnality can indeed lead us to be separated from God.
Here is Question #11
11. Why do your blogs constantly revisit to drinking?