The Carnage, The Horror, The Freedom!
To require people to live according to scripture creates admirable human beings, but it does not create free human beings. To insist that people live by the Bible appears to advance the development of the human being, but it is really just a religious form of bondage. It is not only unhelpful but dangerous to say that the Bible should be our guide. When we use the word “guide”, we think of a manual or instruction booklet. This approach to the human being only creates fear of failure and punishment and leads to arrogance if one succeeds or condemnation if one fails to live up to the instructions.
Freedom is the healthiest condition of the mind and heart, and it is the happiest place of humanity. If you read the scriptures, they must inform that reality of freedom and testify to our momentary liberation. Somehow, scripture must act like a fertilizer that percolates our minds and hearts with the freedom that the Spirit brings. The bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation. It is like a document from a free land that announces to us that our bonds have been broken and we are free indeed.
The sudden attention I received from Slice of Laodicea. and Apprising Ministries a couple of weeks ago didn’t bother me because they are only what all religion is, including Christianity, except on steroids. They are like many people I already know, including myself at times, only ramped up. They are only higher-paying passengers on a higher deck of the same sinking ship. But even though that kind of religion and Christianity produces exceptional people, the whole enterprise is nevertheless misdirected and doomed. We are not free, but enslaved under our traditions and scriptures and religious guidelines. There is a freedom that is presently available to us all right now, but the carnage that would be left of our religious lives and selves is just too horrible to imagine, and we shrink back from the freedom that is rightfully ours.
The fine art photograph is the creation of my friend Mark Hemmings, and is from his mannequin series.
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nakedpastor
i think you raise a very important point. we “Christians” tend to think the Scriptures are a handbook or manual. but this isnt what they are intended to be.
however, i do believe there is much in the Scriptures that are a guide for how we are to live. so if we take everything exactly as it is handed down to us (doctrinally) then we use it like a manual. but if we question it and doubt it and learn it and love it, not as a god, but as a tool sent by God, then i think we will stay much more in line with God’s Way.
peter
Reminds me of what John Wimber would say - “the bible is the menu, not the meal.”
Well written — you did a great job of putting into words exactly what I have been thinking. To me the bible is not a “rule book” but a record of God’s unique and dynamic working with individual real live human beings.
Oh yea, a rudderless ship. And your post is a rule book against rules. Authoritative musings that will transform lives. Thanks for the lifeline of hope to all the hopeless.
So, I may be tracking with you and I may not be. You really didn’t explain to me what it is that brings freedom. I can think of numerous verses that talk about obedience to Scripture bringing true freedom. Is this a first post in a series?
If we are not required to live our lives according to the scriptures what pray tell should we use? “How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to your word. Psalm 119. Jude warned of “Christian Teachers” like you, Mr Hayward, “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Mr Hayward you are an apostate and lust after the things of this world. You sir, are on the sinking ship. May God have mercy on the sheep you are leading astray.
I think it’s very easy to forget that the Bible is a book written for human beings, none of whom are exactly the same in circumstance, journey, thought or understanding. Not everything in it will be applicable for every person at every time. Some will specifically speak into our lives, some will help us to understand humanity and God, and some will seem like dry words. The important thing is that it’s dynamic. A bit like a three dimensional sculpture, it looks different from different angles, and mostly seems to have something pointing directly at me no matter where I stand. And of course everybody will interpret it differently. I know, the way my brain works is sometimes bizarre, but it makes sense to me.
Oh, and if you’re trying to raise the ire of Slice again, telling them we shouldn’t live by the Bible will probably achieve your aim admirably.
Man, you have a lot of people that pat you on the back. I think that it is a balance. The bible is needed to helpp you get to know God. He does give me things from it that I base my life on. But I do not get upset at myself when I don’t live up to those things. I just try again. I think guide is a fine word to choose. As in guidelines. They are a framework, or plans with which to build your God based life. But, if you are familiar with construction at all. There are a lot of thing that have to be just worked out, because the plans did not cover those points. So we need to understand, that we have the freedom to do what we feel necessary to serve God. And not to get worried if we go outside of the guidelines. God has accepted some true scoundrels as his chosen. We seem to forget that over time.
[quote]If we are not required to live our lives according to the scriptures what pray tell should we use? “How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to your word. Psalm 119. Jude warned of “Christian Teachers” like you, Mr Hayward, “For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Mr Hayward you are an apostate and lust after the things of this world. You sir, are on the sinking ship. May God have mercy on the sheep you are leading astray.[/quote]
My friend there is a vast difference between trying to live according to God’s word and requiring it for salvation. When you throw out “apostate” and “leading astray” it really indicates that you require such a high standard that you are in bondage. The slightest variation from your flavor of Christian is labeled apostate. When one has such a narrow view it really becomes difficult to understand the freedom we have in Christ. Not freedom to sin but freedom from sin. So quick to throw out scripture that condemns but yet miss the scripture that proclaims the freedom that we do have in Christ.
Galatians 2:4This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
Please don’t try to demand that we need to be circumcised to be acceptable to God.
So what is there, like 613 or so commandments in the Old Testament. I don’t know about you, but I probably couldn’t name 30 of them. That’s where the freedom is. When we love God and love others, we are living those laws (rules). I worship in a very traditional church and I am kind of the black sheep. There is freedom in that as well. One never knows what to expect from me. We can have unity and diversity at the same time. It is possible.
Greetings from a steerage passenger who is free to love it down here!!
Ok, I’ll post my comments without reading the others.
I am hoping you poory chose some words. For example:
The bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation.
Surely you do not mean this. If so, then what are the steps to salvation and how do you find them?
Freedom is the healthiest condition of the mind and heart, and it is the happiest place of humanity. If you read the scriptures, they must inform that reality of freedom and testify to our momentary liberation. Somehow, scripture must act like a fertilizer that percolates our minds and hearts with the freedom that the Spirit brings.
This I agree with. But only the freedom found in Christ. Which I can only get from following the steps to salvation in the scriptures.
What i THINK and HOPE you are saying is that we get way too legalistic about OUR particular version of Christianity being the only correctone. This I can agree with. But I wouldnt go so far as to say that anything goes in the freedom since.
Paul said, “What then, shall we go on sinning? God forbid!” He also made it clear that when we do sin we have an advocate with the Father. THANK GOD! But we should not use our liberty in Christ to offend Christ. There are some things that are still sin. Even under the new covenant.
sorry for the typos. i got all excited!
davidbmc - Can I pushback on this one?
The bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation.
Surely you do not mean this. If so, then what are the steps to salvation and how do you find them?
For me in reading this post, I think the problem with with “proper steps” and not with “how to find salvation”. The Bible is full of the freedom, but it’s hard to nail down “the proper steps” in more than a general head-this-general-direction-and-let-God’s-grace-do-it sort of way. I think you answered it later on with the reference to legalism, and I think that’s where we put restrictions on the text to work only in certain conditional ways.
LOL !! Higher paying passengers on the deck of the same sinking ship. (mouth drops open)….could this possibly all boil down to ..”I don’t have any answers, just questions…it’s all meaningless..and I’m STILL AFRAID TO DIE”…….
If that is what your faith in Christ and walking with God has been deduced to….a sinking ship…I’d say you may be clinically depressed. Let’s go back to your childhood…sorry….I’m just suprised that now you’re telling me GOD’s WORD is not the instruction on how to live….I tried MY VERSION of how to live and had one sorry, lousy, miserable, messed up, lonely life. Now I’m READING THE INSTRUCTION BOOK (note I said…Book..the Bible….not every book written by man nor every movie to be popped out of Hollywood for me to find some esoteric spiritual meaning imbedded within). I’m reading GOD’s WORD….and my life is better spiritually than it has ever been. I have more peace and purpose and the Lord is doing a real work in me concering anger and impatience. That did not come from a list of rules but by WALKING WITH GOD. It is by His SPirit…but NO ONE knows about the Holy SPirit unless they crack open a BIBLE. Freedom comes from getting on the narrow road. LOL…I’m sure you’ll disagree but it’s the truth. Jesus even said the broad road (of the world and all it’s vices and “freedoms”) leads you to destruction. How much of the world is in you? Legalism is thrown about by people who mock those who follow hard after God…the narrow road I’m on has brought me joy, peace, contentment, more patience and self-control. But it has also brought me to “the cross”..where I end up dying…flesh is consumed on the altar of fire to walk this road…it’s painful , yes…but there is great joy in the pain….for the joy set before Him…He endured the cross. I love Jesus more than I did when i surrendered to Him 15 years ago. I am much different as well. More like Him…not perfect…but dying daily.
I think it’s important to properly define and realize what freedom is given to the Christian.
We are ‘made free’ by the life that comes from God through Christ to become like Christ (that’s why His followers were called ‘christians’ in the first place).
The book of Acts really teaches us that it’s all too easy - even with all the gifts of grace we have received - for the Christian community to almost entirely fall our of step with that freedom and virtually abandon the message of life (Paul talks in Galatians about how he stood alone for the Gospel). The problem is still the same - there are all manner of teachings abroad that essentially disconnect the believer from their true freedom in God’s redemption and their role as ’slaves’ of Jesus Christ to love each other and the community around them. When scripture is used to authorize a lifestyle that is inherently legalistic, it does so at the cost of dividing the believer from Christ (Colossians 2). The issue here is really the same as the one which existed in Jesus’ day - we can have plenty of religion (the dos and dont’s of the Pharisees) but what is really needed to be made evident is the life that comes from God through His living word (and that is something much deeper than just the ‘letter of the law’).
We must equally refute ‘holiness’ which is a result of our determination or our ‘ladder climbing’ towards God. Salvation comes to us from above, and is not of ourselves, and it is in that life alone that we can truly grow and walk as our Lord and Saviour intends.
Howard.
T.J.
You took the words right out of my mouth. God’s Word is THE standard. I’m not in bondage as one person stated, I’m truly free. I tried it my way and I was miserable. Those who equate following the scriptures with Christian legalism have totally missed the point. Nowhere in the NT does it instruct believers to ignore God’s Word, it corrects those who argued that new believers had to become Jews before they became Christians. One person said he couldn’t name 30 of the Old Testament laws, I hope he can remember at least 10. Jesus summed up the law in 2 commandments. We do not however have the freedom to pick and chose what we feel like following or doing. If you want to know what God’s instructions are for life is read his Book, he promises to help us live the life by the power of the Holy Spirit. Those who are in bondage are those who waffle between the world and The Way. There is a way that seems right to man but in the end it brings death. I’m happy to be on the narrow path.
okay, i’m reading back and trying to find where i said to “ignore God’s Word”. hm.
Newcenturion the tone of your last comment is a stark contrast with the one you posted yesterday. Welcome to the conversation.
Just for clarification I’ve reread David’s post several times I’ve yet to find where it says that he “ignores Gods word” as you’ve implied.
The trouble with this mode of communication is that the written word has imposed on it our filters, our experiences, our expectations, our traditions and our agendas. To often we misconstrue thoughts and ideas because of those filters. The same filters often get applied to our view of scripture. Or even my comments. Or yours. Let us agree to reason, question, search, and journey together. Let’s do it with honesty and vunerability as we all strive to the likeness of Christ.
We will all be better because of it; I assure of that.
Wow, this is great stuff Dave.
i think the Scripture is like a fertilizer, it enriches our knowledge of God, by showing us how He related with those found in it. Even in the OT where David broke sooo many laws God still called him friend. This gives incredible Hope. And the Grace brought into the picture when God gave us Jesus, again, incredible. i think the Bible is about relationship, letting us get to know God, not to make us feel condemned by Him, or make us follow a bunch of rules that the Bible even says didn’t work, that’s why Jesus had to die! If we would just love and let His grace flow though us, i think we might be starting to get the hang of what it means to hang with Him.
Hey NP, I think your use of the word ‘freedom’ takes some of us to “in those days there was no king in Israel so everyone did what was right in their own eyes.” And our knee jerk reaction is that freedom does not tend to lend itself to man reaching higher but lower.
My sense from your post is that you’re not talking about freedom from restraint (self-control, God-control, etc.) but freedom from the pressure imposed by ourselves and others to perform and pretend and to mask our true selves.
Unfortunately the Church has a rather poor record of responding to freedom by building systems, rules and structures to “help” us stay out of trouble.
I’ve got to agree with several comments on here that the choice of words and phrases was atrocious here. “The bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation. It is like a document from a free land that announces to us that our bonds have been broken and we are free indeed.”
The Bible clearly states “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.” and “No other name was given by which man may be saved.” If that isn’t an instruction, giving the proper step to salvation, I can’t imagine what is!
If you meant to say that the Bible is not to be used as a textbook of how to live the right way SO THAT you will be saved, then you’re right. Following all the laws of the Bible won’t save us. Gal 3 - “IF a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would have come through the law.”
But the Bible does clearly give us guidance on how we should live.
Eph 4&5
“Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouth…”
“Get rid of bitterness, rage, anger, brawling, slander, malice…”
“Among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality or greed because these are improper for God’s holy people.”
I’m doing those from old memory, so forgive me if they aren’t word perfect.
“Be kind and compassionate to each other, forgiving each other…” ;^)
The Bible most definitely IS (among a great many other things) a guidebook on how we should live! We should not use the guide improperly, but that doesn’t stop it from being a guide. It is a great deal more than a guide, but that is one of its functions.
Speak out against abuses of using the Bible as a list of behaviors which are necessary to salvation! Don’t go so far as to say the Bible does not give us guidance to living to please God.
WebMonk,
Very well stated. You said what I was trying to say.
dm
Amazing post.
“This approach to the human being only creates fear of failure and punishment and leads to arrogance if one succeeds or condemnation if one fails to live up to the instructions.”
It appears to me that this statement sums up quite nicely the thesis of your post.
It also appears to me that some people find security in guidelines and structure while others (like myself) cringe under the idea of rules and rulebooks. I’ve gotten much benefit from reading, studying, and meditating on the word. I have found great freedom in the pages of scripture. But when I start to create a list of do’s and don’ts I become a slave to the law.
Unfortunately most of Christianity has designed the system in such a way that there is no alternative to following the list. Your a good christian if ___________ Your a bad christian if you don’t ____________. Before long we’re all doing mental check lists about how we measure up to the person next to us. And patting ourselves on the back because we’re not divorced, or a single parent, or a smoker, or a drinker, or struggling with porn, or an adulterer. The whole time the person who is struggling with any of those things dies under a mountain of guilt and shame. They don’t find grace in the church they find condemnation and judgement. If you tell me this never happens try not praying for a meal one time at a church function and see what happens.
David shares what’s on his mind and instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt we hammer him about word usage and phrasing. Maybe we do this because we’ve created a list of what a Pastor should say or how he should say it and anything short of that and we’re ready to pounce and correct the error. It becomes a self righteous game of “Whack a mole”. Before long no one feels safe to share what their feeling, thinking, struggling, or doubting about.
Fall back into line preacher man; that’s not the way we do it down here!
Chris-
Are you saying its ok for David to challenge the thinking of the church, but the church is not allowed to challende the thinking David?
I wont speak for him but I doubt he minds us examining his words. Thoughts are communicated by words. it is the only means we have to discern his message. The words must be chosen carefully.
May be he means exactly what he said. Maybe there is a nuance to what he is trying to say that I didnt pick up. That is why I was needing clarification. By asking if that is what he meant, i did give him the benefit of the doubt.
Webmonk makes a good point.
David, I think that I understand the point of your post but how you chose to say it seems unnecessarily provocative. It requires more fleshing out so as to avoid misunderstanding. That would be a mature and responsible approach.
In the interest of clarification then, was David in bondage when he said,
“Your word is a lamp to m feet and a light for my path”, and ” Your statutes are my heritage forever; they are the joy of my heart. My heart is set on keeping your decrees to the very end. I hate double minded men, but I love your law. You are my refuge and my shield; I have put my hope in your word. Away from me evildoers, that I may keep the commands of my God!”?
Let’s take another example.
In 2Corinthians 6, when Paul says that we are not to be yoked together with unbelievers, can we not see that as a principle or command that we are to consider as a guide in our relationships.?
Can’t one love the triune God and His revealed Word in such a way that one sees His holy principles, precepts and commands as His loving protection for His called out people? Is such a thankful attitude of a child towards the loving protection of his father one of bondage?
Please clarify yourself so as to not cause folks to either stumble or be unnecessarily provoked.
davidbmc,
I’m less concerned about the questioning and more about the tone. If you read my previous post I’m all for discourse. But I’m not for dogmatic statements about Christ and negative assumptions about ones relationship with Christ.
I think the quote I lifted from Davids post is what he was getting at (also not supposing to speak for him). Challenge his thinking, question his rationale but refrain from using phrases like Heretic, Apostate, etc… This does little to engender communication and growth.
Again referring to my previous posts we all view things through our own filters. I can read what David wrote and relate and understand. While others will need more conversation to fill in the gray areas. I don’t see anyone saying clarify for me; I see people saying you must of meant this because that’s the way it should be.
Davidbmc sans yourself asking for clarification.
I think it is interesting that everyone is talking about what nakedpastor said, clarifying his statements, and debating about what he really meant….while at the same time, no one has directly asked him what he meant.
Why not just ask?
NP….what did you mean?
“Please clarify yourself so as to not cause folks to either stumble or be unnecessarily provoked.”: impossible! however, let me try to clarify. living by “principles” is dead. it is not freedom. if i robotically use scripture as a course in etiquette, i might become an impressive christian, but empty of life and devoid of freedom. if the Spirit is here, I am free indeed, and my life becomes biblical in its own unique and transformative way.
Okay…here comes my stupid comment: “…scripture must act like a fertilizer…”
Are you saying the Bible is crap?
(…ducking and running…)
David! How dare you say that we are truly free!!
Go David. Go David. Go David.
Chris, Chris, Chris
I’m glad the tone of my last post meets with your approval and we can now converse.
nakedpastor
okay, i’m reading back and trying to find where i said to “ignore God’s Word”. hm.
Okay You like tobacco, fine wine, liquor and erotic photography did I miss anything? Oh and your a minister of the gospel. In this post you have suggested “To require people to live according to scripture…does not create free human beings…it is really just a religious form of bondage… [And] the bible is not to be used as an instruction booklet on how to follow the proper steps to salvation”. (I guess we’re ‘ignoring’ 2 Tim 3:16) Okay the word “ignore” wasn’t in your post but umm….yeah I think it’s a pretty accurate summation of your view towards scripture.
I was in a small group last week and someone said, “The Bible is black and white. Regardless of what people might want it to be, it is not gray.”
I cringed (but maintained an appropriate “Sunday School” face for his comfort.)
He repeated the statement twenty minutes later, and I found myself biting my tongue and forcing myself to remain in the chair. Those kinds of statements from people are red flags to me–”Not safe, not safe: run for the hills! Legalism is just around the corner and toting a big machine gun! Run!”
For me, Scripture is sometimes very gray. I think it depends on what type of glasses you are wearing when you read it; I don’t think any of us–being human–have perfect vision. We all wear lenses which impact the message/words being transmitted from Omniscience to individual understanding.
Heather was reading my mind when she wrote her comment. I can especially relate to her phrase “it looks different from different angles…”
Newcenturion,
In your comments toward David, aren’t you ignoring scripture?
“Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to ITS rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch?” These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on HUMAN COMMANDS AND TEACHINGS. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their SELF-IMPOSED worship, their FALSE humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.” Colossians 2:20-23
How do your rules for Christians (i.e., no smoking, no drinking alcohol, no contact with “naked” art) fit in with the Biblical mandate to put to death the human “do’s and don’ts” and embrace the freedom Christ lavishes upon us?
Dave I will gladly sit down with you over a nice glass of Sharaz, smoke a Cohoba, and discuss the erotic aspects of the Sistine Chapel with you anytime. Because I recognize that “these” items have not replaced Christ in my life. I have not made them idols. And I refuse to elevate a man-made list of “do’s and don’ts” to the place of judge over me.
Wow — I’ve been reading these responses plus the comments on the Slice of Laodicea blog — a lot of people seem very angry — a sort of self righteous venomous anger — its kind of scary. It should be all about the two great commandments — loving God and loving others — it all stems from that.
In my opinion it takes more faith to live with the mystery, struggle to hold together all the opposites and seek to listen to the Holy Spirit for your own unique life’s circumstances than it does to simply quote chapter and text as if the Christian walk is a predictable black & white/cause & effect existence. There is a journey for each of us to walk… a struggle……a wrestling.
David, I think people are threatened by your transparency. One of my favorite quotes from Richard Rohr is “the real is in the actual”. You, my friend, are real. I think that reality ultimately will sift our theology.
Chris/TTM - you have certainly touched on something key here with regards to the nature of Christian righteousness. What is so needed is a manner of living that is deep and full in it’s humanity and it’s faith which thereby ‘bears the risk’ of real freedom. It is crucial for us to understand that the child of faith will not be harmed ‘if the body is clothed in secular dress, dwells in unconsecrated places, eats and drinks as others do, does not pray aloud, and neglects to do all those ‘religious’ things which some decree…one thing, and one thing only is necessary for us to know righteousness, life and freedom. That one thing is the Word of God - the gospel of Christ, which makes us free’ (Martin Luther on Freedom). Our living and our growth must stem from that living faith alone - It is that message that resides at the heart of the written word.
This was said above:
“Are you saying its ok for David to challenge the thinking of the church, but the church is not allowed to challenge the thinking David?”
Are you saying that David and the church are two seperate entities? Diversity and unity can and does occupy the same space at the same time. I don’t think that anyone holds a patent on truth. As Heather said so eloquently, it depends on which angle you look at it from.
And then in the same post:
“Thoughts are communicated by words. it is the only means we have to discern his message. The words must be chosen carefully“.
Couldn’t have said it better!
From ttm
How do your rules for Christians (i.e., no smoking, no drinking alcohol, no contact with “naked” art) fit in with the Biblical mandate to put to death the human “do’s and don’ts” and embrace the freedom Christ lavishes upon us?
Last post on this for me. First off I don’t make the rules as you refer to them here they can be found in the scriptures. Our freedom in Christ does not give us license to partake of everything we want to do. While some may have no problem with smoking, drinking or viewing pornography (it’s called erotic or naked art now a days) What about weaker brothers and sisters in Christ? Those who look at these activities as sinful? Would you prick their conscience for your freedom? That brothers and sisters is a sin.
1 Cor 9-13
9 But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols?
11For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died.
12And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble.
“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 1Cor6:12
But among you there must not be even A HINT(emphasis mine and my response to erotic art) of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Eph 5:3
I find it amazing that so many in the Church today want to establish their own ideas about righteousness and living for God. However, the Lord has already established those things in the Bible, and they do not change, not even for our anti-Christ culture and the spirit of demonic rebellion sweeping through the Church in our day.
Jesus said, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John 14:15 NAU). One can fairly assess that if one has no desire or intent to obey the word of God that one does not love God, except the love one has for the god one has created in one’s own vain imagination.
John 8:31-32 says, So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free” (NAU). As a former drug and alcohol abuser I can tell you that people who are really free are those who have submitted themselves to God and His Word.
Notice that these are the words of Jesus. If we do not obey Him, we are lying about loving Him. He is the Truth and tells the Truth always—we do not. Galatians 6:7 says, “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap” (NAU).
Real freedom comes in being a servant (slave) of Jesus Christ (Romans 6). When we submit ourselves to Him, then the devil must flee (James 4:7).
Romans 10:3 reveals that much of the Church world today has the same problem as the nation of Israel—Paul’s countrymen in the natural sense. Paul says, “For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God” (NAU).
The last thing I want to see is anyone lost, but rejecting the authority of the Word of God—the Bible—and doing you own thing in the Lord’s name is a sure recipe for spiritual shipwreck and eternal destruction.
“Jesus said, “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John 14:15 NAU). One can fairly assess that if one has no desire or intent to obey the word of God that one does not love God, except the love one has for the god one has created in one’s own vain imagination.” - the other way to look at this one verse, Jess, is as a promise instead of a command. “If you love Me” - if you really love Me, not some fake me or someone else’s idea of Me - “then you’ll keep My commands” - you’ll find yourself obedient to live a life that honors Me in loving God and loving others. It’s not “obey Me to prove your love”, but instead “let Me prove your love by grace-ing you to obedience”. Something along those lines.
David, you said, “living by “principles” is dead. it is not freedom. if i robotically use scripture as a course in etiquette, i might become an impressive christian, but empty of life and devoid of freedom. if the Spirit is here, I am free indeed, and my life becomes biblical in its own unique and transformative way.”
Why do you equate living by principles with “robotically using scripture as a course in etiquite.”
That is a false dichotomy of your own creation. Why can’t someone live by the precepts given to us in Scripture in a Holy Spirit filled, free way? Do you think that the things that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the Scriptures to write did not intend them for you?
Also, can you answer the question I asked regarding David’s statements in the Psalms? Was he in bondage?
Also, repeating my question above,
“Can’t one love the triune God and His revealed Word in such a way that one sees His holy principles, precepts and commands as His loving protection for His called out people? Is such a thankful attitude of a child towards the loving protection of his father one of bondage?”
I think that there might be three stages in the process: the initial bondage of works, the encounter with God’s mind-blowing Grace and then the new freedom to become part of a much bigger plan because, at this point, there’s nothing you want more.
My guess is that one needs to give up the initial righteousness at some point and just beg for God’s mercy. This is where the fun really begins.
“It’s not “obey Me to prove your love”, but instead “let Me prove your love by grace-ing you to obedience”.”
Rick,
I am interested how you got that out of the context or text of that passage. Take a look at the greek and let me know if the words or ideas that you added are there.
Sure, Jeff, but I don’t think I did what you think I did. “If you love me, you will obey my commands” - what did I add? I simply gave another perspective, looking at it as a promise instead of a proof. The greek backs it up, I think - the KJV didn’t have “you will” in it, but more recent translations have “you will keep”, even footnoted in NKJV. It’s a truth, but that doesn’t mean it has to be an additional command, does it?
Rick,
Sorry, I must have misunderstood your point.
The greek literally says, “If you love me the commandments my you will keep.” I think that the NASB and NIV both capture the conditional nature of the statement. I agree that it does not necessitate an interpretation where we are setting out to prove our love by keeping the commandments, thereby earning approval, but rather the obedience will result from a heartfelt love for Christ. However, such fruit is not optional. The conditional nature of the statement still carries the force that there is a requirement to obey the commandments. It certainly does not say, “If you love me, you are free from my commandments.” (I know that you were not saying that.)
Hi, Jeff - I think we’re missing each other in passing but just barely, like most of the conversations on this kind of topic. I think there is a conditional there - “if” - but I would rather the onus of the action be based in Christ’s empowering grace than in my less-than-stellar fleshly ability. Is it about how much I can do for Him, or is it about what He is doing in me? I hope I’m explaining it correctly, kind of reading it from the back to the front.
Hey Rick. Thanks for the clarification. I completely agree on your emphasis. John himself later says, “We love BECAUSE He first loved us.” So it goes, God loved us =>we love Him => we obey Him.
I was only emphasizing the other aspect of this which is that when I read John in aggregate (John 14:15, 22-23, 15:10, 1John 2:3-5, 3:22,24, 5:3, 2John 6) I sense that John parallels what we read in James. “You keep SAYING that you love me. If you really do love me, then you WILL obey my commandments.” Our faith in and love for Christ WILL manifest itself in obedience. I guess I sense words of warning in both John and James that should cause us to take note.
Are you comfortable with that?
I just ran across a poem from John Bunyan that I think David will like.
“Run, John, Run, the Law demands, it gives me neither feet nor hands; better news the Gospel brings it bids me fly, and gives me wings.”
All good
- or at least I hope so. Like I said, I see it as barely missing each other, not outright disagreement. I’m on the same page with your assessment, and have a “both/and” view of this other way to look at it. I think most of the Bible can be read like this, taking it the natural way and then looking at it slightly askew for what’s meaningful. Not looking for something “new” per se, but what can bring real freedom, kinda going back to David’s original remarks.
Mike,
“Are you saying that David and the church are two seperate entities? Diversity and unity can and does occupy the same space at the same time.”
Not at all. Sorry if I implied that. I was being criticized for seeking clarification of his comments. I was just pointing out that the discussion can go both ways. Thanks for clearing that up.
“I don’t think that anyone holds a patent on truth. As Heather said so eloquently, it depends on which angle you look at it from. ”
I dont think anyone holds a patent on truth either. But truth is that which conforms to reality. We need to realize that truth does exist. And pursue it passionately.
Romans 6
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
RO 6:19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I think the problem comes in when we place cultural restrictions on people. Behavior that was considered “christian” in the 1960’s in Texas may look very different from behavior considered “christian” in the 1400’s in Europe.
But a lie is still a lie. It doesn’t matter what culture you are in. The Good News is, I am forgiven for the lie and free from the slavery of sin. The Good News is also that through the power of the resurrected Christ in my life, I am now free to not lie anymore.
Newcenturion,
Thank your for your response to my question. I’m sorry that was your last post on this thread, because I’m curious to know specifically where Scripture says that believers must not smoke or drink or view art incorporating the nude human body. Are you sure that, in these areas, you have not imposed your own ideas upon Scripture?
Thank you for sharing the verses you chose with me. It continually amazes me that two believers can have such divergent points of view while interpreting or learning from the same words in Scripture. I think that such divergence helps us to grow in understanding of and (hopefully) in love for our fellow believers.
My own personal view of Scripture is that God intended the Bible to contain two-sided (or even multidimensional) truth so that no one could ever master it completely. There is always more to behold. For example, most Christians I know tend to put love and judgment in opposition to one another; maybe they are not a contradiction but two sides of the same perfection. Maybe the same can be said for tolerance and discernment, faith and works, and servitude and freedom. Holding these “opposing” ideas and passages of Scripture in mind might prevent us from becoming imbalanced or puffed up with arrogant pride.
As to your question about pricking my brother or sister’s conscience, of course I wouldn’t want my freedom in Christ to cause someone to do something that they see as sin. I have a lot of friends who believe drinking alcohol is wrong, wrong, wrong; I don’t try to persuade or tempt them otherwise. When I dine out with them, I usually order water or tea. But if I am with a friend who does not feel drinking alcohol is a sin, I will order a glass of wine or one of those colorful cocktails with the lime green swizzle stick and the striped umbrella.
But at what point do I cross the line of being so careful not to offend my brother or sister that I become a hypocrite? Must I pretend to agree with other Christians so that the proverbial boat is not rocked? What if it looks as if my sister in Christ is being slowly destroyed by a burden of legalism? Would it be more loving to remain quiet to protect her fragile conscience or more loving to share with her the truth of the gospel–which is freedom!
The Scriptures you quoted would indicate that I be quiet, and other passages indicate that I must speak up and proclaim the freedom Christ provides. Which is why I maintain that the Bible is not always black and white; sometimes it is maddeningly gray!
David
“Not at all. Sorry if I implied that. I was being criticized for seeking clarification of his comments. I was just pointing out that the discussion can go both ways. Thanks for clearing that up.”
Thanks for the response. I don’t think you tried to imply anything, but it was a little wierd for me based on the exchange that was happening at the time. I am glad that you clarified this.
“I dont think anyone holds a patent on truth either. But truth is that which conforms to reality. We need to realize that truth does exist. And pursue it passionately.’
Initially for me, Romans 12:2 comes to mind. “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world (reality), but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” One of the definitions of renew is to replace something that is worn, broken or no longer suitable for use. This, in many cases, might be applicable to people.
I agree wholeheartedly that truth needs to be pursued. What comes to mind though is; say for instance, six people witness a vehicle accident. As a responding officer, I am going to most likely receive six varying accounts of what happened based on the perspectives of the witnesses. All six statements, although different, are absolutely true. What is overlooked by some is that somewhere in the middle of all of the statements lies the truth about what happened.
“I think the problem comes in when we place cultural restrictions on people. Behavior that was considered “christian” in the 1960’s in Texas may look very different from behavior considered “christian” in the 1400’s in Europe.”
Or in the Pacific Northwest in 2007.
Thank you for the polite exchange. I very much appreciate it.
Why is it, when the Gospel is so clearly about God’s mercy and grace, that from around the 2nd century onwards, Christianity has seen it necessary to define itself first and foremost as a ‘moral system’? How easily we forget that the very heart and texture of the message of Jesus and Paul clashed - head on in many cases - with the piety and morality of the times to show that true righteousness was something entirely given from God to humanity. Yes, we have a duty to the soul that is still unsure regarding the true bounds of the freedom given in Christ, but that is most certainly not the problem or issue we face most of the time. Rather than simply facing those still new in their relationship to these issues (and aiding them with grace accordingly), we commonly confront those who judge and decree in the very nature FORBIDDEN by Paul in Colossians; who seek to deny the liberty of the Christian, and judge those who exercise such freedom as apostate, when in reality it is the judges who are at fault. Many of the Reformers, for example, instruct us to boldly express our liberty before such diseased religion, for it has been the bane of the church throughout. There is simply no room for the ‘bondwoman’ of legalism amongst the house of God, for such dictates deny God’s mercy and essentially murder (sever us) from the life that is ours in Jesus Christ. Genuine Christianity (actual righteousness and freedom from sin) can only be made evident amongst us when this sure and true ‘word of life’ thrives at the very core of our message and service - no other ‘gospel’ is safe.
“We have one right to expect from anyone who is ’speaking’ for God - to ‘hear’ the message of ‘Christ Crucified’ - the Lord placarded as dying for our sin and being raised for our justification - the saving truth that deals with our failure. That must be the message from the church that pulses throughout our community - Christ alone”.
Dr Rod Rosenbladt.
Howard - the gospel is redemptive, not moral (in the horizontal sense). A man goes to the pawn shop to redeem what has been held captive, as he buys it it becomes “his” but whatever flaws were inherant while in the pawn shop are still inherant as he leaves the shop with it, although now it belongs to him. And since it now belongs to him the owner is free to begin improvements on that which he purchased. Redemption preceeds remodeling (sanctification). Agreed, and the visible speed of the post redemption remodeling process varies with the individual and the plan of God, both of which can never be ascertained by other onlookers.
Surely we must never let the camel of legalism stick his nose under the tent of grace, and your whole last comment was well taken. I still struggle to understand your view of Scripture, and many time we “orthodox-types” seem so thick headed while the “emergent-types” seem so mircurial in their presentation of doctrinal truth. Throw us a bone, cup your mouth, and whisper in our ears what you know we are listening for about the nature of Scripture, and then you can go on your way with broad, philisophical musings that interest some but at least we will have some evidence that you are not dragging the doctrinal wing of the church into the forest of no return.
Or if you cannot give us that clandestine assurance we will be forced to assume the worst.
Rick
Henry - If you’re asking me to ‘run up my colours’, I’m happy to oblige.
I’m a Christian who firmly believes in the role of Scripture to aid us in matters pertaining teaching, reproof, correction and growth in righteousness. I totally accept that it is only through such light that we can understand ‘ourselves aright and see God’s provision for our need’ (Cambridge Declaration, 1996), and I concur that the work of God’s Spirit within us frees us to live well (righteously - Romans
. Where that places me in relation to ‘emergent types’ or others, I haven’t a clue, but I’m convinced that the Biblical understanding of the work of God within Creation AND Redemption, as known in the early church and as re-gained by some at the time of the Reformation (hence, the emphasis upon the ’sola’s’) is cardinal to the full life and well-being of the body of Christ. I am not seeking a new ‘movement’ today (much of my Christian life has been plagued and impoverished by such ‘new things’) - I am looking to drink deeply of and to share well something of the riches that are in Christ, however badly we have often defined, mis-understood or even abused these in the past.
Does that keep us out of the woods?
I think it will go some way to ‘dragging’ us into the tent of grace…
Howard.
“And Issac dug again the wells of water that had been dug by his father, Abraham”.
Genesis 26:18.
For some weird reason, my last mailing has been ‘infested’ with a smiley!
The textual reference is Romans chapter eight.
And all the gracious orthodox brothers who can see past their sometimes intransigent agendas (like me) say “Amen, brother”. We have extinguished the preparatory stake fires, and some of us may even be able to cull out some edifying meat from your thoughts while still being on the edge of our doctrinal seats waiting to restoke the party we had been looking forward to (satire).
Rick
Howard,
That’s what you get when you type
.
When I read your last comment, it reminded me of something I heard once in a seminar about teaching gifted students. For many years, gifted programs in schools have focused on giving these students MORE. As in more information, more experiences, more assignments, and more expectations. The instructor of the seminar debunked the value in these MORE BREADTH programs and instead focused on the idea that what gifted students really need is MORE DEPTH.
Maybe the same is true of gifted believers. (All believers are gifted.)
(Smiley intended.)
I love this post and I bought you a beer!
I’ve come back to this conversation several times over the past few days because it’s reminded me of my freedom. What a relief! I keep forgetting about the nature of my being free and what a beautiful gift it is from God.
Thanks for the reminder. I’m reminded of the words to a Springsteen song: “Free, free is all I want to be….”
Okay, so we have to be told that the photo is “fine-art” to make sure we recognize it as such? I suppose then that’s the reason we have to be told that the gentleman writing the post is a pastor?
Robert I’m not nearly as smart as most of my brothers and sisters who post here. Could you help me out, I don’t quite get the nuisance of your attack er…comment.
Chris / Pastor Naked:
Sorry…it was a tad mean-spirited, I realize upon reflection. Please forgive me.
I still disagree with all of this, though.
BTW, I’m hurt if you didn’t mean “nuance”
Henry - glad I was able to dampen one set of flames, but I hope some of what I said may at least encourage interest in kindling a ‘fire’ of another variety - semper reformanda.
Tmm - When we ‘taste’ of the life in Christ, spread before us in scripture, then we cannot be content with anything less than knowing Him.
- just for you).
(oh -
Robert - Can you be more specific as to what is disagreeable - the nature of the discussion,
the content?
Howard:
Content…specifically the idea from the post author and the comments of his kindred regarding the Bible as a kind of silly-putty that is sort of the starting point of our self-realization. Using proper and responsible hermeneutics and exegesis, the Bible most certainly should be the guide of a professing Christian.
Mike,
I agree wholeheartedly that truth needs to be pursued. What comes to mind though is; say for instance, six people witness a vehicle accident. As a responding officer, I am going to most likely receive six varying accounts of what happened based on the perspectives of the witnesses. All six statements, although different, are absolutely true. What is overlooked by some is that somewhere in the middle of all of the statements lies the truth about what happened.
Close. All six statements are not necessarily true or false. Rather, all six statements are perceptions of truth. Those perceptions may or may not conform to reality. But whether they do or not, it does not change the reality.
Let’s assume, as I think you are in your example, that all six statements accurately describe what they saw and in that sense they are true. I think the point of what you are saying is that collectively they provide the whole truth (or at least have the potential to-there may be even more aspects that were not witnessed).
My only caveat to analogies like this and the oft used elephant example (thank you for not using that tired analogy) is that we have to be careful that we do not allow contradictory perceptions to be given equal validity. A contradictory perception being one that does not conform to reality.
I think it is very popular these days to say (which you did not) “what is true for you may not be true for me.” That is an impossibility. Truth is truth.
Sorry, I am kinda excited about this topic. It is Chapter One (Truth exists independently of belief) of my soon coming book (40 Things You Should Know by 40).
One more thought—
I would certainly agree that we cannot be good enough and follow enough rules to earn any part of our salvation. Our righteousness is imputed to us.
I think it is important to realize, however, that our “good deeds” are not entirely worthless. The bible says we will be rewarded in eternity for the things done on earth, good and bad. So it counts for something. I think we should always have that eternal perspective which will encourage us to lay up treasures in heaven (which has nothing to with money) rather than on earth where they will decay.
BUT-that only works if you accept that what the bible says on the topic is worthy of guiding our lives. So i’m still not totally positive where “His Nakedness” stands on that issue.
dm
Robert - Yes, those deeds which amount to anything are indeed the ones which ‘He has prepared for us’ (Ephesians 2:10) - for they are the ones which derive from salvation by grace.
Regarding Scripture, I think what is vital for us today, as in all prior ages of God’s saints - is the need to recognize these truths as ’spirit and life’ to us - to understand that God has indeed seen fit to speak through “common” things - written scripture, the communion, the ‘natural’ majesty of creation and, ultimately, in the person of His Son - to reveal to us His character and purpose. Whilst we may indeed vary in our relationship to matters which are indifferent - what you eat and drink and what you shall wear (which, as Christ teaches Himself, are of no major concern in regards to God’s Kingdom) - we should all share a common bond in regards to the truth conveyed through the living word - that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself.
When it comes to such cardinal matters, there can be no doubt that the scriptures affirm an ultimate reality, and that indeed is both a lamp and and a light amidst the darkness of this present age.
“Let’s assume, as I think you are in your example, that all six statements accurately describe what they saw and in that sense they are true. I think the point of what you are saying is that collectively they provide the whole truth (or at least have the potential to-there may be even more aspects that were not witnessed).
David
Thank you. That is exactly what I meant. Somewhere in between all the beliefs and all of perspectives lies the truth……..somewhere! In my example, I can tell you from experience that a contradictory statement or perception will easily be seen. I don’t really believe that;s the case here. My opinion only.
Robert M. Warren,
Please email me at david@voyagethroughthebible.com. I have a question about your software.
Thanks!
71 posts. Most arguing about how the bible can be used to enslave by the judgement of others upon your life. Rediculous. “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” Or put another way, “live and let live.” I understand the wanting to not have to be under the yolk of the moronic simpletons who read a verse, and want to condemn you for it. It is the worst of the christian world. One of the uses for the bible stated was for “Correction.” Well if it is God convicting, fine. If it is another man telling you you are wrong, and using the bible to back it up. He needs to read the numerous times the bible says not to judge. And to understand that only Jesus is the judge. And to follow God, we are not to be judging others ourselves.
Sorry Nate, but you have missed the point of Matthew 7, as is commonly done.
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
The point is that we are not to judge hypocritically. There is a difference in judging (weighing the evidence and coming to a conclusion) and being judgmental (I am better than you). We are certainly not to be judgmental. But we are also to be discerning. We can only be discerning by making judgments.
I only see a few of these posts that could be construed to be trying to “enslave” others. Most are merely pointing out that maybe His Nakedness (my new affectionate term for David) chose his words poorly. Or maybe he didnt! Maybe he really meant exactly what he said.
My concern is trying to figure out if he is saying that our freedom in Christ means there should be no limits on our behavior if he only means that we are freed from the power of sin in our lives.
Maybe I should ask it this way, “Is it possible for a believer to sin? If so, what are the ramifications/consequences of sin in our life?”
oops. sorry! forgot to unbold!
hmmm, try this.
that didnt work. sorry. i hope i havent caused the rest of this list to be bold.
OK, I promise, I am really not obsessed with this but it has been on my mind. I just read this verse somewhere else and it made me think of this topic.
Matthew 28:18 says, “18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
We should be teaching people to obey Christ’s commands. This excludes however, man made traditions being passed off as Christ’s commands.
Most excellent article. It’s too bad that you will now be harassed by the “bible as manual” folks. People are always upset when freedom is preached, because bondage is what most people want. I’ll pray you have the resources to withstand the onslaught. Blessings!!
nakedpastor,
I’m impressed. You’re well on the way to finding the truth. The next step is to realise that we don’t need salvation. Then you will be truly free.
Robert:
Nuance, Nuisance. Not really the same are they? Nuance is what I meant.
“We should be teaching people to obey Christ’s commands. This excludes however, man made traditions being passed off as Christ’s commands.”
Dude…that’s all you had to say and I think we’d be at 3 comments instead of 80 some. =)
Ha…I just realized that the guy who made the comment about “teaching Christ’s commands” isn’t the author of this blog. Same name more or less…it’s confusing.
Nakedpastor may not actually agree with above said comment and so then we’d be at 80 some comments anyhow. Although I think the “teaching Christ’s commandments” comment was pretty succinct and made a good point.
But whatever…
No David, even though you expanded the quote, I still have the same take on it. If we judge others, others will judge us by the same standards we use to judge others. Therefore, if we do not judge others, we ourselves should not be judged by them. Though in a realistec world, someone will judge us. That is neither here nor there. Moving on. Looking at the second part. Again, a different interpretaion. It brings me more in mind of “Those without sin casting the first stone.” None of us are perfect. So to Judge another without first soving our own issues, is hypocritical. So, until we are perfect, we should not judge. So that means, pretty much never.
Also the enslaving was not directed at his nakedness. But the detractors that are law bound, and cannot fathom a life of grace. They must be told what to do. And for whatever wacky reason, most people believe that what is good for them, is mandatory for eveyone else. So we need to be enslaved by every commandment that the bible has. That means I need to drag my neighbor out of his house and stone him to death for cheating on his wife. As much as I truly would like to, I’m going to for go that.
I am also for following all of the commandments of the new covenant that God made with man. As far as I know, there are only 2. Love the Lord God with all of your heart, mind, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself. That’s it. First one is easy. I still have trouble with the second, and always will.
Do you believe one can be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time?
Well this Priest does.
http://webandchurch.blogspot.com/2007/08/muslim-priest.html
Insane isn’t it!
“So, until we are perfect, we should not judge. So that means, pretty much never.” (Nate)
Your take on that scripture is identical to mine - I take it as Jesus saying ‘don’t judge’. I totally agree - some people want to use that scripture for judging another person - that’s almost ‘horrible’ in my opinion (and if we do judge - why can’t we be merciful?). But I do agree with judging ideas/theologies and concepts - since these are things people adopt and they can be discussed to help make a better society - but no shot at the person has to be done in those discussions (since it against no one person).
I think I saw David take a few shots in this whole thing - for those that did that - re-think your position please (cause how is calliing someone an ‘apostate’ even ‘love’). I know if we love someone enough we will hate them enough also to condemn them - believe me I know of that kind of mercy - still do you see the il-logic behind a judgment like that?
But I want to thank Dave for the blog - it has been a great way for many of us to learn and discuss scriptural ideas - without ‘casting stones and crowns upon others’. We all come and talk - easy enough - no one gets hurt - no one gets some seat of honor reserved for one person (Jesus - our teacher).
As far as truth goes, we are all in the process of learning truth - just because we are told something is truth - that doesn’t make it so until we can ‘actually touch, see, feel, think, and work with it’. And it takes time for this to happen…you can’t just be ‘born again’ yesterday and have a grasp on all aspects of truth (or even 10 years) - no this is going to take your lifetime. We may ‘love our neighbor’ on a kind ’say hi’ type level , but eventually as we digest that idea - we find love is deeper than a ‘hug or a handshake’ - maybe the neighbor needs help with moving his groceries from his car to his house. Love ay be true - but it take some serious time to see all the levels it works at.
Lastly, I want to say to Dave - you are not a apostate - you are not a bad pastor - you are actually a very good person, with good morals, and great communicator. If you were my pastor I would be thanking God daily - I cannot imagine how many young people under you will grow up and have normal, meaningful lives that don’t preclude they have an ‘us and them’ idea about the world - now that’s freeing.
societyvs said:
“…just because we are told something is truth - that doesn’t make it so until we can ‘actually touch, see, feel, think, and work with it’.”
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a believer utter this simple truth before. Isn’t it ironic that you can say this and yet still believe in the bible characters?
how do you judge ideas and theologies and not make judgments about the people who hold them?
the very nature of this original post is a judgment that people who use the bible as a guide book are wrong in doing so. some of the comments are judgments that he is right, others are judgments that he is wrong.
Some, (me) keep asking questions of clarification so they can then make a judgment.
But WE ARE ALL JUDGING! Which is fine! We have to judge. Everything. All the time! Just dont be hypocritical.
And by the way, how can you use Jesus’s admonition in the bible not to judge against those who do unless you use the bible as a guide book?
People, People, People,
The Bible is not a guide book, rule book, nor will it tell you how to have everlasting life. It is a fairy tale. It is poetry, myth, and glorified stories made up in the minds of men. It is a story of women hating men and the God they made up. It’s only worth is as literature like Greek Mythology.
“Isn’t it ironic that you can say this and yet still believe in the bible characters?” (Darren)
I don’t quite get this point - can you explain this to me so I can respond properly.
“how do you judge ideas and theologies and not make judgments about the people who hold them?” (Davidbmc)
Very easy actually. I can dislike a teaching that the church holds and call it to more biblically ’sound/accurate’ - doesn’t mean I have to project that onto someone. Even if that someone teaches wrongly - why can’t casual conversation over theology be discussed without it having to defame somone? I think it can - I think we hold to keeping the scriptures at their best intent - and we don’t need to call someone an ‘apostate’ or ‘hellian’ or go into name calling over something none of us have the right to do (ie: hate our neighbor). Do you understand what I am saying here?
This shouldn’t be about people - a lot of people can be wrong in their theology (and I think to a certain degree we all are still learning) - can’t we talk about theology without it being offensive to either side? I don’t judge people - I will call into question ideas and theologies - but I will not call into question a certain person (unless he has broken the law and needs to answer for that - or has wronged someone and needs to make that right - to that person). But even in that the wrong is done by the offender and he can be asked to make things right (even given ideas) but if done nicely - won’t turn into something offensive. But maybe you’re onto something - but with the way mainstream faith uses judgment - there is a problem irregardless to deal with (I take this path).
“And by the way, how can you use Jesus’s admonition in the bible not to judge against those who do unless you use the bible as a guide book?” (Davidbmc)
A guide book and a law book are 2 different things although. Guide book can lead us unto the best actions for a certain value - and unto judging ourselves correctly by it. I have a tougher time using that ‘guide book’ as a book to judge others with - concerning their faults - when they could very well read it for themselves and find the same things we are finding. Does this make Jesus’ teachings a book of laws or one of guiding values? I prefer a guiding value personally - I just don’t see room for ‘judgement’ in a teaching from Matthew that first says ‘do not judge…then ends with judge ourselves first and foremost’. It is neither included in the beautitudes or in Jesus saying’s like ‘I desire mercy (being a judgement) not sacrifice’. I guess it all doesn’t add up to promote judging another either since we are commanded to ‘love our neighbors’ (not nit-pick their motives).
Societyvs,
I know there are people on here who have called His Nakedness horrible things like apostate and hellion but for the record, i have not.
“Even if that someone teaches wrongly - why can’t casual conversation over theology be discussed without it having to defame somone?”
I think you are entirely missing my point. You say we are not to judge people, but you say it is possible for someone to teach wrongly. You are making my case for me. You have made a judgment that the teaching (theology is judged) is done wrong by a person (the person is judged-ie-said to be wrong). I am not saying you are condemning them or judging their motives. But you have made a judgment that the person is wrong in their teaching. This is a judgment about the persons thinking and conclusions. And it’s ok. It snt hypocritical to evaluate peoples teachings. The Bereans were commended for doing as much.
In Matthew, Jesus is clearly saying we should not judge hypocritically. he even gives us an example. Dont point to the mote in your neighbors eye when there is a plank in your own eye. Jesus called the Pharisees vipers and whitewashed tombs. Isnt that judgmental? It certainly is. But he wasnt being hypocritical. Of course Jesus was perfect.
But wait-Paul was judgmental of people too. He even said some were apostates. Very judgmental. But he wasnt perfect. So it is possible to make judgments without being perfect.
“I have a tougher time using that ‘guide book’ as a book to judge others with - concerning their faults - when they could very well read it for themselves and find the same things we are finding.”
That guide book is the only decent source for moral truth. You have even used it as such in your arguments here. You havent explained how you can reconcile saying it should not be used as a guidebook, and then use Jesus’s words in that guide book as a text to criticise those who you think are violating the guide book we should not be using as a guide book.
“Does this make Jesus’ teachings a book of laws or one of guiding values? I prefer a guiding value personally…”
Huh? I thought this blog you were agreeing with said we should NOT use the bible as a guide book? I’m a little confused on your point here.
I am enjoying our conversation though.
And I still feel really bad that somehow I got the whole thing on bold for everybody.
dm
Wow, made it to the end of this discussion…very informative! Noogatiger are you for real…to funny!
Oh, I am for real………..
I was saved at age 9.
I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior.
I believed that he died for my sins and that his death paid the penalty for me.
I asked for forgiveness and asked him into my heart and was baptized.
For 39 years I was a “born-again, saved by grace” believer in Jesus Christ.
However I began to come out of that self induced coma,
I have come to find out that the Bible did not come from God, no way, no how.
I have discovered that it is a very flawed book, by very flawed men about the God they dreamed up. It is misogynistic, genocidal, wrong on science and biology, wrong even on morality. It should not be a guide for anything. Many things in it can be proven wrong. Many so called prophecies did not come to pass. Many so called prophecies were not even really prophecies. Many things claimed in the Bible cannot nor ever will be proven true. There is more evidence that many of the things never even happened, like the worldwide flood, the exodus from Egypt, the wandering in the desert for 40 years, the huge kingdom of Israel, the census of Luke, even the resurrection.
If you guys want peace of mind, quit trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, this messed up book.
Noogatiger, Let me take these statements piece by piece:
“Many things in it can be proven wrong. Many so called prophecies did not come to
pass. Many so called prophecies were not even really prophecies.”
Can you give me an example of which prophecies?
“Many things claimed in the Bible cannot nor ever will be proven true. There is more evidence that many of the things never even happened, like the worldwide flood,”
wont quibble. many think it was a “worlwide flood” in the sense of the known world at the time which would make it regional.
“the
exodus from Egypt, the wandering in the desert for 40 years,”
uh…you have EVIDENCE the exodus DIDNT happen? I think you mean to say there is no evidene FOR it. Which would be correct. Wandering nomads rarely left evidence behind. I’m very curious as to the evidence you have that it DIDNT happen.
“the huge kingdom of
Israel,”
again, what EVIDENCE do you have the huge kingdom did NOT exist. I’m fascinated by the idea that you can have evidence something does not exist. This is quite a breakthrough in philosophy. Can you also give evidence that unicorns do not exist?
“the census of Luke, even the resurrection.”
You must be reading old arguments (like 200 years old that the census did not occur. As for the resurrection, may I suggest reading The Case for the Resurrection by Gary Habermas. If you still walk away unimpressed, I;ve got nothing else for you.
By the way, my CAPS above are not meant to be yelling, merely emphasing the word since some idiot has the whole blog in bold now.
“If you guys want peace of mind, quit trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, this messed up book.” (NooG)
You know - I am not there - but sometimes when I discuss this with people of the faith and they struggle to understand even your basic points - I could see the road there.
“but for the record, i have not.” (Davidbmc)
But you more than happy to defend their right to do this? Even biblically…’wait-Paul was judgmental of people too. He even said some were apostates…So it is possible to make judgments without being perfect’. I think defending the people that say something horrible (which they can be very wrong about and in this case - they never removed the mote from their own eyes) is tantamount to endorsing it. So first off, the judgements against NP are over a webiste - does anyone who called him those names know him? No.
“But you have made a judgment that the person is wrong in their teaching.” (Davidbmc)
But it is not the highest standard. I still think if you re-read Matthew 5-7 you will plainly see Jesus mentions at least 5 ‘do not/do’ sentences - and in each he teaches to go deeper into the idea being taught. In Matthew 7 the judging idea is the same thing - and Jesus says straight out ‘do not judge unless you want to be judged’. The obvious thing in that sentence to notice is that judgement is ‘not a requirement’ of Jesus’ teaching (it’s a cause and effect thing in which you can choose to do or not to do).
If Jesus was pointing to what you say here ‘Jesus is clearly saying we should not judge hypocritically’ then why didn’t he just clearly say ‘judge in the manner not like the Pharisees’? (see Matt 6 for more on these comparisons). That way judgement is covered (it no longer says ‘do not judge’ at all) and we can make the interpretation you claim is there. Otherwise - you still have to contend with the fact it starts with Jesus not endorsing ‘judging people’ and ends with ‘you judging yourself’.
But we are discussing ideas and theology right now in this blog - but I do not know you David - nor have I met you - nor have any clue about your past - on what exact grounds am I going to judge your character? So I won’t. We will continue to discuss theology and hash out out the ideas one with another - no judgment - no ill will - just talking points…people do not have to be judged concerning ideas…NP included…since we can all be sure we are not dead sure about what we are saying as of yet.
“then use Jesus’s words in that guide book as a text to criticise those who you think are violating the guide book” (Davidmbc)
I would say the people that were using the ‘guide book’ wrongly just haven’t took the time to believe 1/2 of what it is saying - so I call them back to the same ‘guide book’ they read from to have another look at it. But we both agree to the using of the guide book as the source we will discuss from. So even if I criticize them - which I do not on a personal level - they have something (or one) that judges them irregardless of me being there - the guide book itself. I haven’t judged anyone - I merely entered into discussions and that’s about it.
“I thought this blog you were agreeing with said we should NOT use the bible as a guide book?” (Davidmbc)
I am good with it being a guide book - just not it being a law book (since I am not a lawyer).
Societyvs,
“I am good with it being a guide book - just not it being a law book (since I am not a lawyer).”
My apologies. I misunderstood your position. I could have cut out half my arguing!
Let me ask you a question that may further limit my remarks (or negate them all together).
Do you believe the bible is inerrant in the autographa and has been accurately copied down through the generations to the extent that we realize there are scribal errors but we pretty much know what they are?