Lip Service or Heart Surgery?
So yesterday I made some suggestions that the community shouldn’t assume when it has pleased the Lord. Like I said, I think this can be a fatal mistake. This has always been the problem of humanity and the problem with the church. We do something, it seems to work, so we bottle it to use again in the future. We even sell it if we can. Not long ago Willow Creek made the public confession that their high-profile and lucrative approach wasn’t working. Read about it here. Back to the drawing board! But I say, “What about the thousands of churches who modeled themselves after you? What are they supposed to do?” I suggest that going back to the drawing board only recreates the same problem. We can’t know how we are going to please the Lord tomorrow, and we can’t assume that we are now. Humility, I think, is being who you are now… nothing more (that’s pride and arrogance) and nothing less (that’s false humility, another kind of pride). God isn’t impressed with our deeds. Especially when we are and we think he is. We could worship our faces off, but our hearts could be far from him. We could give to the poor, and neglect Jesus as Mary refused to do in spite of vocal opposition from the men in the room. We could serve until our hands bleed but not be at the feet of Jesus, as Martha was. We could cast out demons, prophesy and heal and be complete strangers to him. We could do coffee houses for Darfur, feed a few people and please ourselves with a job well done but be far away from the one thing that he requires. Do you know what I mean? Of course, we could do none of these things and think we have a contemplative intercessory ministry and be completely in the dark too. I refuse to be impressed with our shows, even when they seem to promise to produce fruit. Judgement on the last day will expose what was true and what was not. The truth is, as eloquent as my lips might be, in the end my heart is what needs surgery. Anyway, enough for now. No pic. Sorry.
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i agree, we all need heart surgery
Of course we all need “heart surgery,” but don’t we also need to recover from it? By that I mean that we always could dwell on our sin–not that we ever neglect it, we don’t. I pray the ancient prayer “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me a sinner” frequently. Then, I try to remember that he has done so, is doing so, and will do so. Despite my/our sin, we are forgiven and can begin to live celebrating our victory in Jesus, as an old hymn puts it. We do so not in arrogance, but always with humility, as you note so well. God bless you in all ways.
“God isn’t impressed with our deeds” (NP)
How do you know this? Is this also an assumption?
“I refuse to be impressed with our shows, even when they seem to promise to produce fruit” (NP)
I have to disagree - if not for the sake of those involved alone - for sanity. There is nothing wrong with being proud of what you have done and accomplished - that’s being honest about it. It gives all involved a sense of self esteem and meaning with the responsibility they have assumed (and task they have completed). Doing something good for others is something to be celebrated - and continued on - not to be overlooked.
“Judgement on the last day will expose what was true and what was not.” (NP)
If I have to err on the side of judgment - I will err on supporting the side that see’s what you have done as worthwhile and ‘good’. Now I could be wrong on this - but even as you say - let that be worked out on the final day.
if there is faithfulness in works -doing them because we see where there is pain in the world and it should be mended, helped along- then are these works not seen by God as His own? is He not pleased for our faithfulness? are these works not the action of God, born in His mind and acted out in humanity?
sometimes i sense that you are over cynical of the humanity in the church. and i understand your struggle. maybe humanity touched by God IS the church and God works in more ways than just through the church? maybe God desires for church to awaken to a sacred world that is His world. the church may just be a means to the greatest end, albeit the end already accomplished and we must walk into it, claiming it. maybe its time to break from church and enter into community. i see church as just another desert place that God’s people have strayed.
So what would you suggest we do if, as you say, we don’t know if what we’re doing pleases God?
sorry NP. i’ve been hypocritical. i must acknowledge my own cynicism before assessing someone else’s. also, i don’t know your struggle, not nearly enough. and anyway, my argument is non cohesive; it tells more of my naivety, and more of it than i would ordinarily be willing to show except pride blinded me from posing ONLY questions.
Just as I mentioned on the last post, I think the key is what your motivation is, rather than the acts themselves. I have tried to teach my teens this, not just on the “church” world, but in all arenas. When you watch the news, look for the motivation behind the people speaking. Is there an agenda coloring what they do and say?
NP said “when they seem to promise to produce fruit”. That is key. Is it the fruit from a sincere act of love, or of someone trying to buy points?
I don’t know, I just read a few minutes ago, before I read your post NP, Matthew 5:16, “In the same way, let your light shine fefore men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.”
It seems to me that with Jesus telling us to do “good deeds,” that leads to others praising our Father in heaven, we can have an appreciation that we are doing God’s will. However, I do believe that humility is the denominator that allows us to know we did a “good deed,” and God is pleased with it. What keeps me humble with my good deeds is this: They are NEVER about me–they are always about HIM getting praise. For that seems to be the point of Matt. 5:16, praise to the Father in heaven.
You wrote: “God isn’t impressed with our deeds.” You may be right. But I believe He sometimes is “pleased” with our deeds.
fishon
WOOOOHOOOOO!!! NP Right on the Mark. Besides, when fruit happens, it is because of nature. Who created nature? God did. So all of that fruit is his, not ours. That is why I vehemenently disagree with “Societyvs” on this one. Why do us moronic humans always have to think it is something we did?
Society vs sid: “I have to disagree - if not for the sake of those involved alone - for sanity. There is nothing wrong with being proud of what you have done and accomplished - that’s being honest about it. It gives all involved a sense of self esteem and meaning with the responsibility they have assumed (and task they have completed). Doing something good for others is something to be celebrated - and continued on - not to be overlooked. “
Before I write any more, let me say I know this is not a deeply studied remark, though I have been involved in two Willow-Creek “clones.” From this workstation it seems that W-C is an unnatural marriage. If I’m correct, Hybels is a Southern Baptist. The two main points there (though they would say it is full-immersion and Unconditional Security) are the ideas of a Christian’s identity being based on one defining moment, and maintaining a public profile to validate that identity. He adopted a church “profile” from Calvary Chapel after seeing phenomenal growth in that movement since the 60’s. Calvary Chapel’s strength was not in the fact that they were upbeat in their worship, but that they taught a life transformed from the inside out by the Blood and the Spirit, being “washed in the water of the Word.” “Healthy sheep reproduce,” as Pastor Chuck says. Chuck’s approach is to make sure his flock is “the best fed, best loved sheep in the county,” while the Hybels copycat is busy rearranging the seating plan and the music program to make his flock look more marketable to the “seekers” whom he expects to come wandering in at 10:30 sharp on a Sunday.
As Chuck’s congregation is led into the fullness of the Spirit and continues feeding on the Word, fellowship, breaking of bread, etc., like Acts 2:42 describes, they are going to grow, they are going to be witnesses, and stuff is going to happen, mega or not.
If Bill had paid more attention to Chuck’s gospel than his seating plan would we be seeing this problem?
“Besides, when fruit happens, it is because of nature. Who created nature? God did. So all of that fruit is his, not ours” (Nate)
True, but if in a parable you are the ‘tree’ and ‘fruit’ is the a sign of what we do - then it stands to reason the tree must do something in order for the fruit to appear? But since Jesus does not mean we are literally trees then I am guessing Jesus is asking us to live lives that mean something (ie: love one another, share, be peaceful, have mercy, etc). God laid down the teachings but we use them to grow - isn’t that a ‘participative’ relationship - like all the other one’s we have that are fruitful? There is nothing wrong with being ‘who you are’ and who God created you to be - and we need as humans to be ‘accepted’ (especially youth). I see the ‘good’ in the action and no reason to deny it whatsoever.
It’s alright if you disagree with me but the nature argument you put down is based on what exactly? Reality or a parable?