Community and Truth
I’m recognized as the primary teacher in our community and am counted upon week to week to deliver a talk. However, I’ve started to relax that expectation a bit by opening up the teaching time as a discussion opportunity. Even though I do have an opinion (and that can’t be helped), I hope I communicate that I hold my opinion loosely. I do not hold a monopoly on truth. I do not want to open the floor to simple confirmations of what I am saying, but to real and genuine discussion as we earnestly explore truth and its implications together.
In fact, it isn’t enough for me to declare a truth statement and have it supported or challenged, affirmed or denied in a community setting. The members of the community must truly know that they have the complete freedom to search for truth and discover it for themselves. And even when we do “discover” it, we again hold this discovery loosely because we know it isn’t the end statement, the conclusion, the final assertion to annihilate all other assertions.
I believe this is crucial for the health of a community. There is no other way, in fact, for us to exist as true community… the ultimate community being the whole human race. This is the only possible way for my specific community… a Christian (religion) Vineyard (denomination) Church (local tribe) to exist in love both inward and outward. This is the only possible way for us to exist as a religious group among other religious groups, whether Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, or whatever, and for them to exist among us.
Let me boil this down more specifically: my wife Lisa and I disagree theologically on certain issues. Centuries past I could’ve had her burned as a witch or she could’ve turned me in as a heretic to be quartered by horses. But in order for love to determine the nature of our relationship and to actually maintain it, we hold our opinions lightly and are honestly open for change. This is the only way community can work. Conformity against one’s intelligence or will does not community make.
I can’t see, personally, how love would have it any other way.
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[…] i want to encourage you to read today’s post by him… here’s an exerpt: “But in order for love to determine the nature of our relationship and to actually maintain it, we hold our opinions lightly and are honestly open for change. This is the only way community can work. Conformity against one’s intelligence or will does not community make.” […]
I LOVE this stuff!!!
The community we’re in now incorporates “Talk Back Time” into our meetings. So, particularly after a tough teaching, the person behind the podium says “So, what do YOU think?”…. I was AMAZED at how much the folks here
1. USE this time — it’s rarely silent
2. express real and honest thoughts — with actual transparency…whadda concept!
3. appreciate being heard — the biggest frustration folks get is when they aren’t heard… and this empowers EVERYONE with an opportunity to speak their piece of peace.
CONVERSELY, I recently experienced a church CLOSURE (it died) where there was NEVER an opportunity for folks to express themselves, either in worship, in meetings, amongst themselves, with the pastor, with the elders… etc etc
– strangely, eventually, it died.
We, the Body, must breathe deeply of life, move and work a complex dance of joy and service, and we must speak and hear, listen and laugh and cry — as one.
Thanks for the thoughts, the honesty and they journey.
MrsQ
loads of wisdom here david.
i wanted to copy the whole post into the text box and just say ‘yup’ after each sentence.
here’s to non controlling, open hearted, honest to to goodness, blood, sweat, tears and laughter church! here’s to non avoidance. here’s to being open to being wrong. here’s to holding our opinions ‘lightly’ and humbly. here’s to the love that ‘would have it no other way’!
blessings and love.
I’m still wrestling through how I can make room for “open mic” dialogue with the assormtent of characters that God brings together in our space. One of my often repeated phrases is “everyone’s normal until you get to know them”. The truth is that you realize some people aren’t normal from the moment they walk in and tell you they’d like to ____________ that morning (fill in the blank with: dance - alone, lead the singing, preach, explain communion better than I just did…to name a few of my real experiences). We have participation but a free-range dialogue…I tremble.
I’m saying this to be mean, or to try and throw cold water on anyone’s blanket, but (I believe) there is more to life than getting along.
In a marriage, well that’s one thing…in a church, or community, that’s another.
Jesus said” I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.” He knew that the truth, that is Himself, would be divisive.
I know we are all built differently, by personally, I wouldn’t sacrifice the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, to make one person in my community feel comfortable. The whole point of preaching God’s Word (in my estimation) is to make people uncomfortable…to the point of dying…to themselves. And then the gospel can go to work to raise that person to new life. The wheat must die before it can bring life again.
Thanks for the chance to say my piece.
- Steve
The second word in my last comment should’ve been ‘not’.
Sorry about that!
- Steve
Steve,
AMEN. And I knew what you meant. By the way, when Jesus comes back, it is not going to be pretty. Rev. 19:20 makes that clear.
The apostles must have made a few peopl uncomfortable. The gospel cost them their lives by some ugly ways. Paul had a habit of making people uncomfortable. Stephen sure made them more than uncomfortable.
fishon
fishon,
You said it, fishon!
The blood of the martyrs cries out against us when we will not speak for Christ…whatever the cost.
Whatever else God is, He is certainly not sentimental.
Now, I believe we can tell people this gospel message in a loving way. We don’t have to beat anyone over the head with our bibles. But the message must be proclaimed (and often) to believers and unbelievers alike.
And in the face of criticism, we ought not blink…but rather just say it again…your sins are forgiven for Jesus’ sake.
And let the chips fall where they may.
Thanks fishon.
- Steve
brutal.
even Paul’s message that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to himself was the sword that divides division. this is the offense.
The problem Steve and Fishon, as I see it, is that “the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ” has been explained to me, at various times in my life, to include how short/long a girl’s skirt should be, whether you should pay taxes, whether you should tithe to the local church, whether or not you can play cards, watch movies or smoke a cigarrette. Many of my U.K. friends go to the pub after Alpha to carry on the discussion over a pint. Many of my North Am friends would see having a beer with a new or almost Christian as leading them astray from “the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ…”
I think the humility that NP is talking about here has to recognize that Billy Graham had to say ‘no’ to the segregated seating at one of his crusades. We, the Church, have not done a perfect job at getting exactly what “the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ” really is. It’s not a negation of truth or absolute truth, it’s just a recognition that we might be as confused over things as our kin in the faith who chained up Bibles, burned the bones of reformers, tossed bombs into the basements of black churches and burned crosses on the front yards of black people, who ignore the plight of the homeless and the poor while we struggle to decide between the 36 and 72 inch plasma screen tv.
And Steve, someone who cries at the sight of Jerusalem and moans that he longs to gather them as a hen gathers her chicks is the definition of sentimental.
Brianmpei,
No doubt, there has been, is now, and will forever be abuses in the name of Christ. But of course, that is not surprising since apostle Paul had to battle the circumcision groups. That is, putting on to people things that are not of Christ.
When you say: “We, the Church, have not done a perfect job at getting exactly what “the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ” really is,” that is not true.
—-Some parts of the Church haven’t done a good job, but to paint the whole Church with the swipe is bogus.
You write: “It’s not a negation of truth or absolute truth, it’s just a recognition that we might be as confused over things as our kin in the faith who chained up Bibles, burned the bones of reformers, tossed bombs into the basements of black churches and burned crosses on the front yards of black people, who ignore the plight of the homeless and the poor while we struggle to decide between the 36 and 72 inch plasma screen tv.”
—–Oh Brianmpei, I believe there are several on this particular blog that would blow away your premise about “negation of truth or absolute truth.” Just the question, “Is Jesus the only way to the Father?” would raise a few hackels.
I don’t know as if I would say God is sentimental, “Love,” yes. But He is also a God of “Wrath,” and “Justice.” And all this “I’m ok, you’re ok,” crap in some of so-called Christian communities, will not cut it with our God.
Brian, let me tell you a story that has happened within the last 2 months.
A young couple in their early 30s have been coming to church for about 2 months. They live together with her 3 kids. The man heard me say something about me being a “drunk” at one point in my life. He said he would like to talk with me, so we set a time. Oh, this young man had grown up in a church–but had left.
We sat down and immediately he went into how he was an alcoholic. He had tried AA and many other things. He lamented about coming from an alcoholic family and how he was a prisoner to it. In the end, he was just making excuses for being a “drunk.”
I asked him, “If someone is into ‘witchcraft’ and dies practicing ‘witchcraft,’ will they go to heaven?” He said, “No.” I then asked, “If a man is a “practicing” homosexual and dies still “practicing” homosexuality, will he go to heaven?” He said, “No.” Then I asked him, “If a man is a “drunk” and dies as a “drunk, will he go to heaven.” He said, “I think so; I hope so.”
So I asked him to read, Galatians 5:19-21. He did. He didn’t show up for church last Sunday. Now I ask you this: Was what I did with this young man love or brutality?
fishon
brutal.
i wouldn’t have come back either.
Fishon,
“—-Some parts of the Church haven’t done a good job, but to paint the whole Church with the swipe is bogus.” I don’t know these parts of which you speak. I only know one holy Church. And like Daniel, I own the sins of my people. I have no choice.
“—–Oh Brianmpei, I believe there are several on this particular blog that would blow away your premise about “negation of truth or absolute truth.” Just the question, “Is Jesus the only way to the Father?” would raise a few hackels.” Is it wrong for me to be feel strangely turned on by the way you said, “Oh” before my name? Anyway, I was talking about NPs point here, not everyone who contributes to the community.
“I don’t know as if I would say God is sentimental,…” Clearly, I get that. I think we are understanding sentimental in different ways and you and Steve seem to put a negative connotation to the word. That’s cool. I’m like that with Sunday School.
“Brian, let me tell you a story…” I wish you’d have said, “Oh” again before my name. Nevertheless, my answer to your question is, “brutal” if those are my only options. I would be more inclined to say “thoughtless” or “hurtful”. You’ve turned a son of God sharing his struggle with a particular sin into a pass/fail test for entrance to the pearly gates. In my world love means coming alongside my friends and inviting them to come alongside me, confessing to one another, praying for one another and helping each other give Jesus more and more room in our lives so that he helps us walk in freedom, limping though we may go.
I’d also say that you are mis-applying the text. Paul is contrasting those with the Spirit and those without. He’s not talking about the struggles that we, who have the Spirit, will still encounter as we live between here and there.
p.s. could you give the young guy our address? the drive is probably a bit much but he’s be welcome here and all our A.A.ers would be happy to see him walk into the room.
David,
Of course I don’t think you will answer, but why do you think brutal?
Was is the questions I asked, or the scripture I gave him to read?
You notice, pastor, I never judged him, told him he was right or wrong, sinning or not sinning.
What will really be brutal is when he walks into the church down the road and they say, “Oh you poor sick, alcoholic. You have this terrible disease. Let’s sit down and have a glass of wine and talk about it. Oh, what a horrible story. What a mean old pastor jerry is. I just hate it when he points sinners and the sick [alcoholic] to scripture. No, you are right, he is mean spirited, oh, let me fill your glass, I see it’s half-empty. Why, just who does jerry think he is, pointing out scripture that may help you see the truth of sin and it’s deadly results? Oh no, don’t worry about what Gal. 5 says. Paul did NOT really mean what he said. BELIEVE ME, DRUNKEREDS WILL ‘NOT’ GO TO HEAVEN EVEN IF THEY DON’T STOP BEING A DRUNK. Trust me! You see, I really love you, not that mean, old jerry who shows you scripture.”
Oh, pastor David, I think he will come back. You see, if I read him right, he was pretty tired of all the pat and pablum he had been given. It will take him time to digest what the truth of scripture says.
Oh well, you love um your way, I’ll love um….
fishon
Great topic np! Lots of wonderful discussion.
I’m not sure that ‘division’ is what the sword divides. Division is already divided and needs no futher sepearation to show that a difference exists.
I think the sword will be used to seperate light fom darkness, truth from lie, good from evil, sheep from goats.
Brianmpei,
Churches are full of sinners, and churches(many) are full of lousy doctrine. We are not saved by what we do or don’t do. If that were the case Christ wouldn’t have needed to come. He would have just lined us all up and judged us on our behavior.
Drinking alcohol is not a sin. Christ Himself made almost two hundred gallons as His first miracle. The Pharisees called Christ a drunkard and a glutton. A real party animal. Abusing alcohol is a sin. Being drunk. Letting it control you. Many things in life are like that. Food is another example. Money. Family. Anything will do. Will fat people be automatically disqualified from heaven because they can’t control their intake of ice cream or potatoes?
I have a beer every now and then with my pastor. He smokes cigars, and plays blues and rock guitar. So what? I have a lustful thought, I don’t always work down at the homeless shelter. I don’t live on a thin margin of income and give the rest to the poor, either. So what? I do happen to have a Savior, though. And that is a big deal.
This idea that the Christian life is all about me and what I do id a load of horse dung. For me being a Christian is being declared righteous for Jesus’ sake. That is enough. My sinful activities (and believe me, there’s a lot of it) has been died for. And so has yours been died for.
Christ isn’t looking for goody two shoes that are able to toe the line. No one toes the line. If someone thinks that they are doing a pretty good job of behaving themselves down here…they are in real trouble…they have become as a Pharisee and become prideful.
Reptentance and faith. Dying (to self, the performance project) and rising. That’s what Christ is after. So much so that He does it to us, and for us in His Word of law and promise.
I think many in the churches ought read that parable again of the scumbag tax collector and the upright church going Pharisee. Now there’s a ‘division’.
Thanks all.
- Steve
I think it is dangerous to believe what you believe the scriptures say and mean is so closely aligned with what they actually say and mean that they are inseparable.
I like wine.
Brianmpei,
Didn’t mean nothing by the “Oh,” so I apologize if it offended.
I will just respond to this that you wrote, because we will just go in circles on the other stuff.
You write: “I’d also say that you are mis-applying the text. Paul is contrasting those with the Spirit and those without. He’s not talking about the struggles that we, who have the Spirit, will still encounter as we live between here and there.”
—–Brian, I take you to Gal. 5:21b, “…I warn YOU [caps mine]….” Who are the YOU?
fishon
Fishon,
On the contrary. No offense at all.
“You” would be the listener. The point is that Paul is using a technique common to teachers of that time to make a point. He’s contrasting two types of people, those with the Spirit and those without. The big idea here is that the Law = no Spirit and no power to change. The Gospel = Spirit and power to change. It is NOT meant as a reservation list for entry into heaven. It’s a teaching technique to contrast those who live by the Spirit that transforms and those who try to live by a Law that only kills.
This IS NOT my interpretation. (it IS an interpretation, I’m just saying I didn’t come up with it) A little study of sources will clear this up. There are many methods of communication found throughout the New Testament that screw us up if we take the text at face value. Example : if you don’t hate your mother you can’t be my disciple. Really? If your hand gets you into trouble, cut it off. Really? There are many, many, many examples and study outside the textbooks they recommended at Bible college will turn you on to all kinds of old ideas that we can call new.
And now I’ll go back to lurking.
np,
“I think it is dangerous to believe what you believe the scriptures say and mean is so closely aligned with what they actually say and mean that they are inseparable.
I like wine.”
You lost me. Could you put that another way?
Thanks -
Steve
David,
When the means are clear, they are inseparable.
The problem is, many folks don’t like the meaning because it cramps their desires. So off they go making their own interprations, and of course, someone like me is then portrayed as an intolerant, homophobic, bigoted, pharisee.
Yes sir, when Paul tells the Ephesian Christians, “But among you there MUST NOT BE [caps mine] even a hint of…,” that is exactly what he means. To not teach your folks that principle [when the meaning is clear, believe it], now that is dangerous.
fishon
Brianmpei,
To be specific, the “you” are the Galatian Christians.
I agree, the list is not a list to keep and then heaven. The law was only a school master pointing towards Christ. However, this list is there for a purpose. And Paul makes it clear that this isn’t a list meant for those not in Christ. Paul makes it abundantly clear that the “warn[ing]” is to them [Christians]. You have to ask your self the question, why would Paul be warning Christians of things that if done, would not allow inheriting of the kingdom? In fact, Paul is emphatic. This is their second warning. Paul is not wasting his breath. He isn’t warning the folks because there is no danger. A warning implys, “DANGER.”
fishon
“Brian, I take you to Gal. 5:21b, “…I warn YOU [caps mine]….” Who are the YOU?” (Fishon)
Gal 5:21b (NASB) “and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Warn and forewarn are similar but a little different. However, the point simply is Paul is warning them about certain actions they are either committing or they see in society around them being committed - to avoid such actions as a person of the Spirit…so obviously with the Spirit they could still make common mistakes.
““But among you there MUST NOT BE [caps mine] even a hint of…,” (Ephesians)
Eph 5:3-7 (clips) “not even be named among you”; “and there must be no”; “Let no one deceive you”; “do not be partakers with them”
What’s Paul saying with this strong language - well - ‘do not be partakers with them’ - in immorality. This has nothing to do with acceptance in community…even with all their faults Paul accepts them enough to write a letter after all.
“The big idea here is that the Law = no Spirit and no power to change. The Gospel = Spirit and power to change.” (Brian)
Oddly enough, the things Paul mentions in that list in Ephesians he also pulls from the Torah and Prophets - his basis for these ideas. I am not sure the law is being questioned in Ephesians as having ‘no power to change people’ - see 5:14. The Spirit is not about breaking the law but loving the values it teaches. Which, to me, comes across clearly in Jesus also.
“This is their second warning. Paul is not wasting his breath” (Fishon)
Paul is not wasting his breath - he is trying to help a Gentile community understand the teachings of the Torah and Prophets - and the goodness that can come from them - and also the immoral things that can lead you away from God (the kingdom - here and now - then and there).
That being said Fishon, that was a harsh way to ‘love someone’ with an addiction. I agree with NP and Brian - we need to extend love to that person - that doesn’t mean we admonish their actions - but that we deal with the reality of the situation in a gentle/meek manner (God forbid we ever find ourselves in that predicament - so be merciful). I think I would of be-friended that person and got to know them so I could speak frankly with them about this issue and the obvious problems it is inflicting on the one whom it haunts. Then I would offer solutions to the problem.
I can say this because I do this a lot in real life - and I deal with tougher issues than just alcoholism (but that’s one). But I don’t meet these people in a church but in the real world and they are also my friends that I sincerely care about. When I see problems like the one mentioned - I don’t make them feel guilty about it - they know that part I am sure of it - I offer an ear to hear and some advice when asked. Sometimes I help out with what I have if possible. But that’s real life and a lot of people need some help sometimes (even us). We need to be careful to remember that - ‘love as you want to be loved’.
Knowledge of the Law, a list of right and wrong, good and evil..
Or
Knowledge of God, relationship with Him..
Well, I’ve heard what happened to the two in the Garden, and I think I’ll stick with the second choice…Can’t go wrong with Him, thank God…
Too bad that young man was directed to the list and not the Love.
T,
Why do you think the list was given? It is all about love. Paul loved them enough to “warn” them, and for a second time at that.
To not love the young man would be to not tell him the truth, and if you read my story you will see, like some haven’t, all I did was take him to scripture.
T, let me ask you a question, and I tell you what, I won’t even respond to your answer, so you don’t have to contend with me, a pharisee. QUESTION: “If someone is into ‘witchcraft’ and dies practicing ‘witchcraft,’ will they go to heaven?” Dare you answer>
fishon
Honestly, I don’t know, as I’m not the One that makes that decision.
If someone is into dissension and dies practicing dissension, will they go to heaven?
Dena,
No.
fishon
fishon, Dena,
If that person belongs to Christ, then Yes!(he or she will go to heaven) For that is a sin that He died for as well.
I do believe He died for… All Sin!
If it’s up to us to somehow clean up act before we die, we are all in deep doo doo.
- Steve
So Steve,
You believe that a person who, as you say, belongs to Christ, and is a practicing homosexual when they die, they are going to heaven? Really!
So then, one of my wife’s best friend’s son who just slit his mother’s throat and then burned her, oh, and slit his dad’s throat and tried to burn him up [looks like he will make it] is going to heaven? Oh, the young killer is a youth pastor.
But of course, I hope you don’t pull the old, “Well, he must NOT have been a Christian to do a sin like that.” Cause then that would mean you pick and choose which sin a person does after they become a believer, makes or doesn’t make that person a true believer.
Oh, there is so much more to deal with in this issue, but not the time or the word skills.
MAKE IT a great worship day tomorrow. But then, every day is a day of worship.
fishon
fishon,
Which sins do you believe Christ died for? Just the little ones?
That is the radical nature (why it is so different than every other form of religion on the planet) of Christianity.
Either Christ did everything on that cross…or He did nothing.
Christ is after repentant hearts, not clean slates. He gives us the clean slate…for free!
The sins that you and I commit every day are just as bad in the Lord’s eyes as those sins you mentioned, murder, homosexuality, etc.
Sin is sin, is sin, is sin. It is ALL worthy of death. But the price was paid, on the cross. If you are sorry for your sins…that is enough.
“Simul ustes et picator.” The great Reformation principle that states we are totally sinful (guitly as charged) and totally justified (made righteous ) by what Christ has done, it has nothing…I repeat Nothing to do with our performance one way or the other.
That’s the gospel.
Thanks!
- Steve
Ok, Steve,
You go ahead and argue that “you and I commit [sins] every day [that] are just as bad in the Lord’s eyes as those sins you mentioned, murder, homosexuality, etc.”
You go ahead and argue that we can, once we are saved, go and move back into the wantin, delibrate, conscience sin we once were in. You go ahead and give a pass to the “SAVED” PRACTICING PEDOPHILE. Or that sick, diseased, ‘SAVED’ alcoholic that comes around the corner to fast and wipes out a family of 6, and continues to drink himself into death.
As for me, I will point the saved who may be slipping back into their life of sin to Gal. 5 and many other warnings the writers of the Bible gave to Christians. I will warn them that they are in danger of hell fire.
You can tell them that, “No, you shouldn’t sin, but since you are saved, if you do molest those neighbor kids, you will still go to heaven. I beg you not to, but heaven will be your’s, anyway.” That is where your doctrine ends up at. You see, if you can’t tell a saved drunk he is in danger of hell-fire, you can’t tell the saved pedophile that either. You are stuck with having to maintain consistency.
fishon
fishon,
I will tell all who will hear it that Christ has died for their sins, (that’s the gospel).
The Lord will grab a hold of people through that Word of forgiveness (Romans 1:16)
Galatians isn’t about slipping back into sin. It’s about slipping back into the law (what we do) for righteousness sake.
Getting to heaven on the basis of our good or bad behavior isn’t Christian…it’s pagan. (what the hell do you even need Christ for?!)
All those forms of deviant behavior aren’t the signs of one who has been grabbed a hold of by Christ. But if you think that we will stop sinning after we become Christians you are sorely mistaken , my friend. Read Romans 7. Paul says that what he should do…he doesn’t do, and we he shoudn’t do..he does. That’s us!
You like to put sins on a sliding scale. Jesus shoots that theory all to hell in the sermon on the mount when he tells us that “if we are even angry at our brother we have committed murder. If you even look at a woman that way…” etc, etc. He’s trying to show us that none of us are worthy. That all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags (Isaih 64).
Christ died for the ungodly (also in Romans)…that’s me. For those that have clened up their act suffieciently…welll, they don’t need a savior. I do.
Thanks fishon!
- Steve
What an interesting, and oddly disturbing, debate.
For what it’s worth, I keep it simple. I work as chaplain in two jails with men who have committed sometimes extremely serious offences. But God commands us to love everyone and love them I do. In fact I’m often sad when they’re released as I know I’ll miss them!
But I want them to become Christians. And those that are, I want them to stop sinning. I also want the staff to become Christians. And I want them to stop sinning. I see so much sin there sometimes it overwhelms and depresses me. I too,of course, am sinful and identify with the great battle Paul talks about in his Romans 7 tongue-twister.
And as far as the disturbing discussion about the alcoholic is concerned, we have plenty of them, and drug addicts too. Even the converted ones have relapses. Of course I don’t like it (I don’t like my own lapses sin-wise either) but I’m not going to be mean to them on top of the misery they’re already feeling.
Ax
Steve,
Someone has to stop the debate, so I will. You and I will just disagree. But we will not leave this debate in a lather.
I do hope you make and have a great tomorrow.
fishon [jerry]
fishon (jerry),
You are a good man! I guess we can leave it be for awhile. No hard feelings at all.
I think it’s great that we can and do discuss things that most people wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole.
You also, have a wonderful weekend!
Your friend and brother in Christ-
steve
““Simul ustes et picator.” The great Reformation principle” (Steve)
Wait..thats not a great Reformation principle to dictate..that’s a biblical principle harkening back to the Tanakh.
“go and move back into the wantin, delibrate, conscience sin we once were in” (Fishon)
That’s their responsibility to deal with isn’i it? No matter the crime and whatever - as far as I know Christ died for our ignorance to bring us to God. We do have a responsibility in this process.
“I will warn them that they are in danger of hell fire” (Fishon)
That’s grand and all but it doesn’t address here? Warn with all your might - sweet - but people go on. Then what? God will forgive them for what they have done. No. That sin is on them to deal with. We can’t refuse to let someone go on with the stupidity of their decisions that hurt anyone. I agree. A price is paid for them to get to heaven - but they best go on and do the same thing (forgive and be compassionate).
“Getting to heaven on the basis of our good or bad behavior isn’t Christian…it’s pagan.” (Steve)
How sure are you of this? Ever tested it? I think Fishon makes a good point about responsibility. We are all responsible for how we judge another or the society around us - and how we act upon the ‘other’. God forbid He should hold us to any less. But that’s my view of atonement and our involvement - and ‘yes’ we are involved.
“Jesus shoots that theory all to hell in the sermon on the mount when he tells us that “if we are even angry at our brother we have committed murder. If you even look at a woman that way…” etc, etc. He’s trying to show us that none of us are worthy. That all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags (Isaih 64).” (Steve)
Theological assumption. None of us are worthy…you saying Jesus taught us something we could not live up to? Why? What a nice guy if that’s the point - lol. You have to be joking right? Anger if not acted upon is not the problem…anger is bad once acted upon (or am I wrong?). I think we can all admit we been mad before and done nothing about it - we let it go.
societyvs,
Jesus laid down the law. No one can keep it. But it must be kept for God’s Kingdom is pure and no impurity can be allowed there. So there is a problem. The problem won’t be solved by us since everything we do is tainted by sin, “all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags”. ( the word is …ALL)
So God decided to solve the problem out if His great love for us. He sent His Son to live the perfect lives we cannot and will not live. That’s right, we will not live a righteous life. That’s all of us.
We don’t get better so that Christ will love us and forgive us…He loves us and forgives us…then we get better. But better is a relative term. We still continue to sin, but as St. Paul says we don’t live in it. We don’t give ourselves over to it. But it is still there.
He died for all of it , thank God, otherwise you and I would be toast.
That’s the Gospel…
thanks!
- Steve (had to make it quick…off to church!)
Hmmm…
…I have strong opinions. I always have. But the opinions I hold today are not all the same as the ones I held 10 years ago. What are the chances that all the opinions I hold today I will still hold in 10 years?
How dare I plant a flag on the hill of my opinions of “what is true and what is right” when I may soon uproot that flag and plant it somewhere else?
There are things that are true–I don’t know them all. There are opinions that I have that I can discuss, argue about, and reconsider, but many of those opinions don’t really matter in the long, long run.
If I have all the right opinions (i.e., “know all truth”), and have not love, what do I have…?
Fred,
Good for you Fred! A man that realizes his opinions may not always be correct, is a wise man.
When it comes to political parties, or ideaologies, or good wine, or taste in movies, or choices in restaurants…to become ossified may not be a good thing for you or those around you.
But when it comes to matters of ultimate importance, let’s say….someone’s salvation, then having a strong opinion may be a matter of life and death.
On such matters of who God is and what He expects from us, I don’t really hold any opinions that aren’t predicated and bolstered by those who have gone before me and have witnessed and testified to what they saw and heard.
I believe (can’t prove it) that the message of the Bible is true. Christ died for sinners, that they might have eternal life.
It’s not my job to prove it, or defend it (although it seems as if I do spend a fair amount of time doing that)..it is my job to just say it. In the proclamation of his Word, God acts and grabs a hold of the hearer’s heart…when and where He will.
This message of Christ for sinners is a radical message. That we don’t have to do anything, that Christ has done it all, not because of anything we do… but in spite of everything we do!
This is so foreign to us that we have an innate reaction when we hear it. We want to defend our free will at all costs. We want to defend the goodness that we have amassed against the evil that are neighbors do, and therefore we never looked so righteous as from where we stand. Try looking at yourself the way other’s see you. Or better yet, the way God sees you. He sees everything you know, and knows all our corrupt thoughts as well. This message of Jesus Christ dying for and forgiving sinners is so radically different than everything we know, that we would never have cooked it up ourselves! You want to see what mankind cooks up? Then lok around at all the other religions. They pretty much revolve around you and what you are supposed to be doing or not doing, or thinking or not thinking…it all boils down to…’You’.
The Good News! That’s what the Gospel means. How can it be good news if we have to toe the mark?
Jesus toed the mark. Jesus ran the race. Jesus reached the bar. And to top it all off, He died for us.
What a glorious God we have!
That’s my opinion.
- Steve
“Jesus laid down the law. No one can keep it” (Steve)
So Jesus fulfills a law we cannot keep anyways - do you believe he was God also? Has God set us up for failure then? Think about the logic for a second…God creates a law for the children of God - but He makes it so hard they cannot keep it - dooming them to failure and…well…punishment. Who can love that God? He is both setting up unrealistic expectations in the first place and then judging people by something you say ‘no one can keep’. Was God at one point un-loving?
I would also point out - pertaining to the law - the Jewish faith still keeps and cherishes it - or how do we judge their faith?
“The problem won’t be solved by us since everything we do is tainted by sin” (Steve)
As per the quote, what we do in comparison to God is ‘like filthy rags’ and rightfully so - we are comparing creation with the Creator - I am also guessing we all feel like Isaiah in that presence of the Creator ‘not worthy’ to even look upon it or speak. But just because God is holy does not stop Him from establishing relationships w/humans - including Isaiah (prior to a Messiah ever stepping on earth).
But sin is weird thing and the atonement. If you check into the atonement Jesus’ blood sacrifice is compared to the sacrifice of the bull once a year (in Hebrews) for all the people. This only dealt with sins committed in ignorance and not willfully. Now Jesus is greater than that sacrifice - I comprehend that - however according to God’s Torah Jesus would of opened the way to the ‘Holy One’ - forever branching that divide (once and for all) - for the Jew and Gentile. Animal sacrifices now gone.
As for atonement, actually we play our part also. The Jewish people have 3 aspects for atonement (1) blood sacrifice (2) repentence (3) charity - according to the Law and Prophets. All 3 of these aspects we see in Jesus teachings and sacrifice. First words in Matthew from Jesus to the people is ‘repent’ - which is a key message throughout. Odd thing about repentence - it takes you to do it (God cannot do this on your behalf). Charity is actually a very big principle within the gospels, letters, and Acts - something we see Paul and the disciples very engaged in - almost as if they saw this as part of the gospel message. I can find it very easily in Matt 25 - the sheep and goats parable - anyone else see ‘charity in that passage?
The law is good and the Psalms attest to this fact over and over…and not once is the idea it cannot be lived up to explained in the Tanakh - and would also add Jesus’ own words to that list. Jesus makes no bones about us following the ‘commandments’ - including the ideas of ‘love Gpd and your neighbor” (from Deut) and ‘treat others how you want to be treated’ (this sums up ALL the Torah and Prophets). How can you even claim the Torah was not meant to be followed? Jesus points straight in it’s direction also and I am not sure the following commandments of summation Jesus used - you break?
“He sent His Son to live the perfect lives we cannot and will not live.” (Steve)
I actually fail to see how perfection was the mandate in the first place - sinlessness seemed to be what Jesus was called/created for. But in all honesty, perfection is not once recorded in the Tanakh - it’s not even a concept in Hebrew. Now God may not want us to ’sin’ - 100% in agreeance there - but perfection - what is that? Are we making a standard of unreasonable heights for the reason of making God look greater and us look worse? Why do we need to do this?
“We don’t get better so that Christ will love us and forgive us…He loves us and forgives us…then we get better” (Steve)
God loves us and always has…even prior to the crucifixion - however prior to that crucifixion there was no real inclusion for the Gentiles into the ‘Holiest place’. Christ changed that and made it equal for all to come and learn. God loves us - but even God will not do everything for us - Jesus dies once for all (not many times for many) - but that death means all can come and learn before God and no one can stop them. But it does not mean God does everything for us - we are responsible for our participation and 2 acts of atonement - reprentance and charity - we are now priests according to Hebrew of this sanctuary - we need to learn what that means and how to be a ‘priest’.
“That’s what the Gospel means. How can it be good news if we have to toe the mark?” (Steve)
What mark? Of course even you would be lying if Jesus does not ask us of to behave in a certain way - so if there is a mark - it is something possible. I have very little problem with Jesus asking of us the things he does - in the end we have to act like judges (and on earth in a way) - and how do we judge in our personal courts (what measures do we use)? Should we be like the teachings of the Christ? He was merciful to the unmerciiful and peace where there was none. I think the teachings of Jesus are a great guide to ‘life’.
[…] March 17, 2008 at 9:23 am (Uncategorized) From the ‘Community and Truth’ blog of Naked Pastor. […]
societyvs,
If you think you, or I, or anyone is capable of fulfilling God’s law of perfection, than I really don’t even know what to say. (I’ll try, however)
I hope you do realize that the law must be kept perfectly. Jesus said in the sermon on the mount, “Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” How are you doing? I’ll bet you are doing a whole lot better than most. You sound as if you’ve got a handle on this stuff. God bless you, you are a better person that I.
St. Paul says in many places, you want to be a law keeper, well, no one will be justified in the sight of the law.
Repentance” Done by us? Hah, that’s a good one. The Holy Spirit is the One who leads us to repent. We don’t want to repent, Why else would we committ the same sins over and over again? Like for example overeating. Or laziness. Or worry (worrying is a sin you know). Or not helping others when we have the resources to do so. Repent? Give me a break. The only one serious about repentance is God. He even has to make that happen in us.
If you want to be good law keeper and think you are actually able to do so…then what do you need Jesus for anyway? You might as well just become a Jew. They have the law of Moses and that’s enough. Some of them actually are deluded enough to think that they can actually keep it. That’s pride. Neo-Phariseeism.
“Christ is the end of the law for all those you have faith.” (Romans 10:4)
Now, that is freedom.
Thanks societyvs!
- Steve
“If you think you, or I, or anyone is capable of fulfilling God’s law of perfection” (Steve)
Law of perfection - that’s an assumption you are bringing to the text. Find me the actual law of perfection so I can agree with you. I would suggest you ask a Hewish person about their view of the Torah and Prophets - because they do not hold your view and yet ‘they love the Torah’.
“I hope you do realize that the law must be kept perfectly” (Steve)
Actually - this is your assumption about the Law - it is actually stated nowhere in the law - contrary to your opinion. As for the Jesus quote “Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.” well that is for the reader to do - and is directed as Jesus asking us to follow this idea (ie: our participation).
But what is God’s perfection? The context states it quite clearly - and I would ‘perfection’ as ‘well rounded/complete’. Jesus seems to be asking us to be godly in our manner of treating other people with respect. The same God that makes it rain on the righteous also makes it rain on the unrighteous (and the same for the sun shining) - God is not a respecter of people that anyone should be treated better than the next. I tend to agree.
“You sound as if you’ve got a handle on this stuff. God bless you, you are a better person that I.” (Steve)
Actually, this is an assumption also - almost as if I am being pre-judged for something. If you think about it I am not the one holding to a perfection ideal that cannot be achieved - I don’t see the teachings that way at all. As for being better than you - I think the whole idea about being ‘well rounded/complete’ sums that up - no one is better than the next person that God should love them more. I would also say the teahcings of Jesus on meekness and humility come into play here - which I also try to follow. Just cause the law is ‘good’ does not mean I am better than you.
“St. Paul says in many places, you want to be a law keeper, well, no one will be justified in the sight of the law” (Steve)
I like Paul - but I think you’re barking up thr wrong tree with Paul in this sentence. If Paul thinks all is settled with the sacrifice of the Christ - then why does he waste his time on behaviours of the communities (and the need for change) and the idea one could lose his salvation? Is he a hypocrite?
Eph 5:4-6 “and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
This is Paul’s words. Obviously he is drawing this morality from somewhere - he being studious in the Torah and Prophets must be drawing it from there. And he seems quite clear about something - the immoral person cannot inherit the kingdom - this is written to a church community BTW.
If Christ’s sacrifice paid the full price and all are clearly accepted by the mere acceptance of the sacrifice - it would seem Paul disagrees with that assertion by naming morals and behaviours that do not reflect God keeping some out (these same people were confessing Christians). This is one example from Paul’s writings - I can find more quite easily.
Paul draws from the Law also in his writings and says it should lead us to faith in the Christ - Jew and Gentile.
“Give me a break. The only one serious about repentance is God. He even has to make that happen in us.” (Steve)
Then praytell Steve - how is that you are not involved at all in the relationship w/God? God does everything and you do nothing? That’s quite sweet in a way - it takes all the responsibility off of you and puts it on God - name another relationship like this you know about in real life (whether with family, friends, or wife)? I would also mention Jesus states a lot about the Holy Spirit - but it repenting and changing us without our consent is not one of the ideals I can read in there. Jesus asks us to ‘repent’ in his teachings also - was he kidding or something?
“then what do you need Jesus for anyway? You might as well just become a Jew.” (Steve)
Believe me Steve - that’s not the worst thing in the world. As per Jesus, he created a way for the Gentile - and is the Christ teacher from God - I would say that gives him quite the credibility to speak on the law and prophets (and the reason for me to listen and learn). So what if Jesus respects the law…how does this nullify his meaning?
“They have the law of Moses and that’s enough. Some of them actually are deluded enough to think that they can actually keep it. That’s pride. Neo-Phariseeism” (Steve)
It’s also pride to pre-judge a whole race of people based on a bunch of assumptions - and most practicing Jews reading your comment might also think your crossed a line of fairness. You do not even know how they view the law yet you have the audacity to judge them in some mass generalization? That makes no sense to me at all. Learn their perspectives then make the comment.
“Christ is the end of the law for all those you have faith.” (Romans 10:4)
Define ‘end’ here? The fulfillment of the law? The book-end of the law story? The law is done away with - ended? Or maybe the law leads us to faith in God and the Christ? I can easily see what I am saying in that sentence also - is that really that bad a thing?
societyvs,
You are right. We can do it.
I guess I just need to try harder.
Maybe you and I are reading two different Bibles.
The one I’m reading says that Christ is the way. The old way of law keeping for righteousness sake is kaput. Even St. Paul in 2nd Corinthians calls the law (the 10 Commandments)” the ministry of death.”
Reverting back to Judaism is what the whole book of Galatians is about. He tells ‘em “you sever yourself from God!”
Hey… different strokes for different folks. The bible is just an old book. We know better.
I wish you a lot of luck keeping the law.
Remember this; it’s not your worst you ought to worry about with respect to God, but your best. For it’s not good enough either.
Thanks for the fun time defending Christ and His work, against us and our work. i’ll gladly do it until the Kingdom comes. But right now I’ve got to make a few bucks or my wife will kill me.(that too is an expression of the law…another demand)
Ciao!
- Steve
Thanks.
- Steve
“The one I’m reading says that Christ is the way. The old way of law keeping for righteousness sake is kaput” (Steve)
Christ is the ‘way’ - John; Law keeping for righteousness sake kaput - 2nd Corinthians? Ministry of death - cool name for a band I must say - but what does it mean in context and where is this? Even with these few mentions of scriptures - what do they mean to you? I can see the point your making but I am not sure how you’re doing it.
“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law” (Gal 5:4)
In context, Paul is talking about circumcision first and foremost. By verse 14 something very weird happens “For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”. Did Paul just say the ‘whole law’?
What needs to be considered here is Paul is talking to a Gentile community without the scriptures at all - meaning the Torah and Prophets. They do not follow the law anyways and never have - but they will follow the spirit of that law anyways - which also comes from God (like the Torah). I think Paul is hinting the Spirit of God will lead people into the ideas of God (from the whole Tanakh) and they don’t need mind themselves with Jewish rituals (ie: circumcision - then I would also say - for that matter atonement - which is a Torah ritual).
Either way you cut this one up - Paul embraces the law one way or the other. I mean, you can’t have it both ways - but somehow you have Paul paying 0% homage to the teachings of God from the Tanakh - this is simply not true. In Galatians 4:21-31 we see Paul making points to Gentiles based on Torah passages - isn’t that precious? I think Paul has a dislike for the Jewish persecution at that time - being a former ambassador of it himself likely jaded his experience.
“I wish you a lot of luck keeping the law.” (Steve)
I also wish you the same - which you will do irregardless of what you write back - cause I do believe God’s Spirit will lead you into ideas like ‘love your neighbor as yourself’ and even ‘treat other how you want to be treated’…or am I sadly mistaken?
“Remember this; it’s not your worst you ought to worry about with respect to God, but your best. For it’s not good enough either.” (Steve)
Why wouldn’t my best be good enough? I think God is happy with my sacrifices and respect for His teachings - even with regards to the Christ and atonement. I live to repent and be charitable - not to earn anything - but to honor something.
“Thanks for the fun time defending Christ and His work, against us and our work” (Steve)
Us? Sounds like Pink Floyd time - I think here some ‘Us and Them’ in that sentence - think of it how you want I guess - we both follow the same Christ.
As for the law and it’s ‘demands’ - well - why should God’s teachings be a labor at all? Do we not respect and enjoy them? I love the ideas of compassion, forgiveness, charity, love, mercy, peace, humility, and justice. We see the law different I think - you can be influenced by Paul if you choose - I choose to think the law is good.
You might like this bit I am going to share - ever read Psalm 119? Do you think it is scripture or no way man? If so, the term ‘love Your law’ appears 4 times in that very song (97, 113, 163, and 165) - is David kidding when he says this? If the law is as terrible as you say I should never find a phrase like that in the pages of those who wrote and followed it.
societyvs,
New testament trumps old testament. Gospel trumps law.
All our righteous deeds are as filthy rags holds up new testament gospel, not law.
St. Paul bends over backwards to tell us that our works aren’t good enough. Christ picked him after all the others (apostles) didn’t get it. David wasn’t kidding but he didn’t have Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross yet. (New Testament) Whay did Christ die on the cross anyway, if the old way was good enough??? When Paul speaks of the law he means anything that we should must or ought be doing. (not just jewish law) When the apostles ,and Jesus spoke in the scriptures, they were addressing us also.
Look societyvs, this stuff is hard to fathom. The gospel is radical. It is so unlike us that we don’t want to believe it is that easy. I do understand that. I believe what I’m telling you and I still have a hard time with it every now and then, because there’s a part of me that says there is no free lunch.
Well, there is a free lunch in Christ.
That’s the gospel.
Take care, my friend!
- Steve
“New testament trumps old testament. Gospel trumps law.” (Steve)
That’s your answer? I must have asked about 10+ questions or something in the last 2 posts and this is the answer? I follow the gospel of matthew above all books I read - what should I do - agree?
“All our righteous deeds are as filthy rags holds up new testament gospel, not law.” (Steve)
That passage is from Isaiah and only quoted in letters of Paul (from the prophet) - so actually - it was written by someone that followed God’s Torah (a prophet). Now Paul quoted it…didn’t write it…quoted it - and maybe it’s the same spirit he is following?
“Why did Christ die on the cross anyway, if the old way was good enough???” (Steve)
That’s really the crux of the discussion isn’t it? Jesus is painted as an atonement by Paul - however - what that atonement actually means is truly up for deeper discussion since in the Torah that sacrifice (of the once a year for the community) was for all people there - for their sins committed in ignorance (or by accident). This is what Leviticus and Hebrews both say.
Now Christ died for us - ‘while still in our sins’ - but we were ignorant basically. I see a Christ dying to invite us into God’s presence and also doing away with the sacrificial system once and for all - and including the Gentiles fully in the process (according to Paul and the gospels). Now there was an atonement there - but we are also part of the process in dealing with our intentional sins towards others.
“When Paul speaks of the law he means anything that we should must or ought be doing” (Steve)
For real? Do you follow the laws of the city you live in? If so, why do you do this? When I look at the law and having boundaries with our behaviours - I see this attitude of protecting others and taking care of them. It’s not about me all the time - the law is very clear on that - ‘love your neighbor’ (even Paul says is the whole of the law). The intention behind the law simply is: caring about others as you care about yourself - this is pleasing an idea to God - Creator of the creation - and basically the scriptures only want us to deal with this delicate balance of ‘treating others’ kindly.
“Look societyvs, this stuff is hard to fathom. The gospel is radical” (Steve)
I agree - it is very radical - namely the ideas we humans should love other humans - even our very enemies. What is even harder to fathom is a God that only starts to matter when we Christians decide this - and then write off all of His work prior to the Christ. I also find it quite weird that the law is seen as ‘bad’ when it is their to define our directions - guide our steps - help us set-up values and boundaries for our very nurturing (this idea is also very clear in the gospels).
Free gift - yes; but free to do as we choose and call it godly - no. The teachings of God seem quite clear on providing morals and lessons for us all the time - why? So we can say - ‘I am saved by Christ’s atonement’ and now nothing else matters? What of values and boundaries? What of repentance and charity? What of loving our neighbor based on the love of God for us? I see a God that asks of us to be loving and fulfill all commandments by doing so…I see nothing all that bad in that.
If I went by the free gift idea (universalism) then I don’t really to think nothing more of the teachings, right? If everyone is ’saved’ (whatever that means) then why does Jesus and Paul plainly point out this is not the case…do we just ignore those ideas? Don’t get me wrong - if you think the Spirit of God will lead you into all these godly things - what can I say - I agree (you basically don’t need the teachings to read either - God will guide you). I have no problem with that view at all…but don’t call me a ‘them’ because I think the Torah is good - I know you will be following the same Spirit I do also.
Ah, Steve, so quick to claim victory…..
God told us in Torah that our covenant was eternal, God told us in great detail how to follow the 613 mitzvot, and God told us it was not hard to follow these commandments. “Surely this Instruction which I enjoin you this day is not too baffling for you, nor is it beyond reach. It is not in the heavens, that you should say, ‘Who among us can go up to the heavens and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?’ Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who among us can cross to the other side of the sea and get it for us and impart it to us, that we may observe it?’ No, the thing is very close to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to observe it…..Choose life - if you and your offspring would live - by loving Adonai your God, heeding God’s commands, and holding fast to God. For thereby you shall have life and shall long endure upon the soil that Adonai swore to your ancestors, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give to them.” (Deuteronomy 30:11-14,19-20)
God is such a liar! How could God tell us that following the commands would bring us life when instead it brings death! God is such a liar! God told us it wasn’t hard to follow these commands when reality was it was impossible!
Deuteronomy 13 is just a bunch more lies I suppose, where we are told not to follow signs and miracles but to instead follow what God commanded us; where we’re told not to follow any god except the one God who our ancestors followed. “For you will be heeding Adonai your God, obeying all God’s commandments that I enjoin upon you this day, doing what is right in the sight of Adonai your God.” Lies, all lies I’m to believe?
Perhaps you should be careful, Steve. What is so special about Christians that you should think a God who lied to us wouldn’t lie to you as well?
And let’s keep going here. Because we couldn’t stay loyal to Adonai, our God, we were punished severely. Our country was laid waste, women ate their own children just to survive, the Temple was destroyed and we went into exile. Never again after this was idolatry a problem for us. We learned our lesson painfully well. So, once God saw we learned this lesson, to follow only after God, God decided to play a little game with us, take on a human form just like the Greek and Roman gods, and then punish us again for all eternity because we remained steadfast to following God’s commands? Wow! That’s quite sadistic don’t you think? Are you sure this is God you’re worshipping?
I can see why you tell Society that this stuff is hard to fathom, even though people are supposed to be able to come as little children and accept it all; to me it’s hard to fathom why anyone would want to have anything to do with the god you present! Certainly I do not. But, to each their own.
How other people relate to God is their own business, it’s not for me to tell others they must walk our path. Society would no doubt make a great Jew, if guys like you keep pushing him away someday he may decide to join us, but we don’t seek converts. We see him as a great person just the way he is and that there is no need for him to become a great Jew.
As for me, I guess I’m deluded, just as King David before me, I love Torah and find great meaning in living a life of mitzvot connected to God and my community. Pride? Reading your posts I’d have to say the pride seems to be falling quite heavily on your side, but whatever. And none of us Jews today are Neo-Pharisees. We’re just Pharisees, plain and simple. If you ever decide to look beyond NT polemics you just might see why we’re not insulted in the least to be known as Pharisees!
I try to avoid free lunches, BTW. Inevitably they include ham and cheese sandwiches….
Yael, I am proud of you! You didn’t have to come down to the site and yet you did - to speak on behalf of your Jewish heritage and faith - and I have to say ‘kudo’s’ to you - it isn’t easy to be Jewish in our Christian communities (even on-line) - when some of this language can be so offensive in nature to your beliefs. For that I cannot apologize (although I wish I could) - all I can do is sympathize and continue to learn from your teachers also as well as those in my faith community.
And the one’s in my faith community that cannot learn from the Jewish perspective - need to learn some serious history about the very writer’s of the texts they so passionately love. Knowledge just might be a form of love?
Ah, ah, ah. No pride allowed there Society….I thought it might be interesting for some to see a different side of the picture and to realize that there are Jews online as well. One never knows who wanders by. Anymore I’m not all that offended; resigned is more like it. It’s always the same….until it isn’t!
Sorry was only here now, and there’s much too many comments to read them all through! I know someone probably already said something similar but just want to cast my lot in as well.
fishon,
pretty big to say who goes to heaven and who not. i thought it wasn’t our deeds but His. I’m not saying “everything is ok”, i’m not one of those people, but laying it out like that, I do resent it and don’t think the same way, I don’t think I can say who goes to Heaven and who not. And even if I am of some certain opinion, like David said, I can be it “lightly”. I don’t need to compromise, but don’t need to fix people either! Unless they ASK for my opinion, help or advice. People already often feel bad and guilty already. I think love for that man, whatever you think is the truth, would be something else than bringing judgement on his head. When I’ve been in low points in my life so far, What gets me up is love and help, not judging look. Check out MercyMe’s “Does anybody hear her”
(could be Casting Crowns, I always get them mixed up!!)
all the best
Mimo
Mimo,
A couple of things.
#1. Just where did I say who goes to heaven and who not???? Please show me that?
#2. You wrote: I don’t need to compromise, but don’t need to fix people either! Unless they ASK for my opinion, help or advice.
——–Did you not really read what I wrote? “We sat down and immediately he went into how he was an alcoholic.” Do I have to spell it out?
Mimo, you have done what many here do. You don’t like what you read, so you make assumptions and read into what is written [Oops, myself included].
So, I ask again, where do I say who goes to heaven and who not?
And since it wasn’t apparent to you by what I wrote about the young man and me sitting down to talk, he wanted my opinion and advice.
I love Casting Crowns. Great concert. “Does anybody hear her.” Great song. Just a minute, I am going back and listen to it. Yep, just what I remember. No one helped her see the “Ways of God.” Two parts to that song.
#1.
Does anybody hear her? Can anybody see?
Or does anybody even knows she’s going down today
Under the shadow of our steeple
With all the lost and lonely people
Searching for the hope that’s tucked away in you and me
Does anybody hear her? Can anybody see?
—————-No one ‘Under the shadow of our steeple’ stopped to help her before she
went down.
#2.
If judgement looms under every steeple
If lofty glances from lofty people
Can’t see past her scarlet letter
And we never even met her
—————-After she went down, no one loved her enough to help her.
Jesus would save her life, and tell her, “Go and sin no more.”
Remember, those where Jesus’ words, not mine.
Mimo, good to make your aquaintance.
fishon
We all deserve to be thrown out because of the law and the fact that God being good means He can’t let any corruption through.
ALL OF US!
Reason enough to stop being all high and mighty and start being non judgmental to other sinners, don’t you think?
thebutler,
Don’t know if you will come back to this thread or not, but if you do, question.
I take it by your last sentence, you are ‘non judgmental?’
Yes–No?
Of course, we haven’t yet agreed as to the biblical definition of ‘judgemental.’
And of course, if you choose to answer, no matter your answer, that could lead us down a long path.
fishon