Confusion and Certainty
Sorry I haven’t been around for a while. Easter, family visiting, software problems, as well as the usual and depressing tendency to question everything I do, has contributed to my absence. But I’m back, at least for now.
I am certain that confusion, not certitude, is faith’s faithful partner. And yes, I do realize the irony in that statement. Jesus went on the cross and into the grave believing, not knowing, that he would rise again. I don’t think he was certain. He believed it and had to trust God to wake him up again. It wasn’t as if he was going into a hotel room saying, “See you guys in a couple of days!” It was a risk to hand himself fully and obediently over to death. It had to feel like a huge risk. He had to feel the full weight, terror, and finality of death. He had to actually die. Full stop.
My grandmother just died a couple of days ago at almost 94 years old. She’s been wanting for years now to go be with Grandpa and with Jesus. I think the same trust is required of my grandmother as it was for Jesus. I don’t know for certain what comes after the grave. I hope and trust and believe, but I don’t know for certain. I trust, when I die, that my father will wake me up too… whatever that means or looks like. I don’t want to minimize or romanticize or sentimentalize death. It is my final enemy. But I believe, in a confused sort of way, that it will be defeated. And I want to be there when it is.
belief, certainty, christianity, church, confusion, death, doubt, faith, naked pastor, resurrection Share This
Thanks for this post! It’s really encouraging to me since I too constantly question myself and everything I do [”Is this really the way I should be loving my neighbor?”, etc.] and feeling more confused with each effort to understand. Anyhow, I was wondering about your comment, “Jesus went on the cross and into the grave believing, not knowing, that he would rise again. I don’t think he was certain.” I’ve never heard this point of view before and I was wondering why you have that belief. It’s actually really thought provoking and I wanted to know how you came about it. Is there a particular scripture or just general theology that leads you to this conclusion? Thanks!
It is not doubt that is the opposite of faith but certainty. Faith is what we do in spite of doubt. And when certainty replaces faith we end up with the most dangerous people in the world
FWIW: in the gospel of Mark, the disciples mess up every time they stop asking questions. The text is quite explicit that they are clueless, and Jesus seems fine with that. It’s when they start having a hardness of heart and stop asking Jesus to explain things to them again that they invariably mess up. If the folks who were following Jesus around spend most of their time being confused, I think the rest of us are in pretty good company.
I agree that us being certain is often not a good sign. However, like Kelli, I’m curious about the idea that Jesus had quite as much doubt as you suggest, your nakedness, and I too am interested to hear more of how you arrive at that. I’m really comfortable with my vagueness about theology and doctrine but I don’t feel the need to project that onto Jesus. I’d rather continue to see Jesus, being, as he was, free of sin, able to have a really perfect relationship with our Father, which is an inspiration to me. He didn’t say, “I’m going to tear down this temple and then hopefully possibly maybe build it again in three days”. I’m happy to be woolly, being after all a sheep, but I like my Shepherd to be a bit more solid and strong and sure footed and certain about stuff…
I believe it has its roots in Martin Luther. I could dig it up out of my notes if demanded. But Jesus HAD to live by faith. And the same faith as we! No different. Not of little faith, obviously, but of faith. The inspiration must come, not from believing that he was God and had faith, but in believing he was a person, just like us, who lived by faith.
And that is why it is called faith. We have no garuntees. One of my favorite lines about garuntees is, ” I can take a crap in a box and put a garuntee on it. But what have I really sold you, a box of crap.” Garuntees are only worth whoever is backing them. My garuntee is back by the most powerful organization in the universe. That gives me certainty and peace.
David,
Dang, here I go again.
You said: “…believing he was a person, just like us, who lived by faith.”
—–I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus had the common experiences that mankind has, but Jesus was NOT “just like us,” in that as Colossians 2:9 says, “For in Christ, ***all*** the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.” And unless you believe that all the fullness of the Deity lives in us in bodily form….
AnneDroid makes a beautiful scripture reference:
John 2:19-21–19Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” 20The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body.
Matthew 16:21-23 21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. 22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!” 23Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”
From the time Jesus as a 12 year old told his parents he “…must be about his Father’s business,” his march of life was towards 2 things. Jesus’ purpose was “…to seek and save that what was lost.” Mankind had only one chance and that was Jesus fulfilling His Father’s business. #1. The Cross #2. The Resurrection.
Jesus had no doubt he was going to hang on a Roman cross, and he did. And there is nothing that even intimates in scripture that he ever questioned that he would be maybe not be resurrection.
If as you say, “Jesus went on the cross and into the grave believing, not knowing, that he would rise again. I don’t think he was certain,” then the Cross was a dangerous move on Jesus’ part. He was rolling the dice and hoping for the best.
However, Jesus had RAISED Lazarus from the death, and gave the apostles the power to raise the dead {Matt. 10:8}, then to think he would be not be certain that God the Father might not raise God the Son from the dead is, frankly, silly.
jerry [fishon]
Nice job Dave!
Thinking about death a bit this weekend too. A friend’s dad died and I went to the funeral on Friday and then my SIL’s granny’s funeral was the next day. The stuff you’re talking about makes sense…thanks for writing it down.
Sorry about the loss of your Grandma!
Yes, I’m sorry about that too. Ax
Words are never perfect.
Sometimes they are just the sword we hold in front of us to cut through the jungle of ideas?
In other words, you can try to communicate some kind of well composed theology but you need to sharpen it regularly to make your way through the tangled forest.
Sharpening means adjusting.
Never adjusting makes your sword blunt.
My condolences to you, also. Wishing you Peace and some R&R, Olivia
fishon said: “If as you say, “Jesus went on the cross and into the grave believing, not knowing, that he would rise again. I don’t think he was certain,” then the Cross was a dangerous move on Jesus’ part. He was rolling the dice and hoping for the best.”
Well, for many, if not most Christians, belief = certainty. So I really don’t see the difference. Christians “believe” they will go to heaven. Don’t Christians “know” they will go to heaven?
Actually, as a non believer, I would be more impressed with the “sacrifice” Jesus made if he didn’t “know” he would come back to life in three days. Heck, if I “knew” that I could give all the people I care about, eternal life by my death, I’d volunteer in a second…if I “knew” I would be back to normal in a few days. If I didn’t believe in an afterlife, I’d have to think about it for a day or so.
From my point of view, the cross of Jesus is far less significant if he knew it would all be undone in a few days. And I have always been of the persuasion that he, being “fully God and fully man”, he knew this was just going to be a bad weekend, but next week was going to be great.
Bob,
Have you confused some of what David said, with my arguement? I was arguing for certainty: “Christians “know” they will go to heaven.” Or maybe I misunderstand you?
Well, I guess that is the difference between we humans. I was drawn to God because I didn’t have to guess if He was God or not. I personal like it that Jesus/God knew he would be raised. But in the end, it doesn’t matter whether you and I differ on whether He knew or not. The Word gives us the answer as to him knowing if he would be raised or not.
You do confuse me just a little. But that is easy to do with me. You seem to be saying 2 different things.
1st you say: ‘Actually, as a non believer, I would be more impressed with the “sacrifice” Jesus made if he didn’t “know” he would come back to life in three days.”
2nd you say: “…I have always been of the persuasion that he, being “fully God and fully man”, he knew this was just going to be a bad weekend, but next week was going to be great.”
Which is it? “Impressed” if he didn’t know,” or “Persuasion” because “he knew it was going to be a bad weekend but the next was going to be great?”
By the way, the cross was not “undone.” It is “finished;” at least I seem to remember Jesus saying that. Thank goodness it was NOT ‘undone,’ or I wouldn’t have had the opportunity to come to the cross since it would have been “undone.” Big difference between “undone” and “finished.”
“Bad weekend?” I do believe you need to rethink that statement.
By the way Bob, I will be using that phrase of your’s in my sermon, and I will give you credit for it. Well, at least Bob will get credit, Bob who, well, Jesus knows that.
fishon
Bob and NP,
Jesus believed and knew that He is going to be raised up again after 3 days. He doesn’t just believed and trusted God, He also knew.
But what is the catch, our all knowing God selected the era of the Romans and the cross. The cross is the most humiliating, the most embarrassing and the most painful way of death. God selected that time in history to let Jesus suffer from it. He didn’t choose the time of electric chair or the gas chamber or lethal injecition, which He could. But instead He chose the cross to let mankind know that He is willing to suffer.
He knows that He will be raised up after the weekend, but before that He suffer a lot for us to see, for us to believe.
“just my 2 cents”
fishon,
Sorry if I didn’t make myself clear. Darn internet thingy.
Let’s see, I don’t think I confused what you were saying with np. I think David was leaning toward Jesus uncertainty and you were…are, saying Jesus knew full well (after all, he is God, and God knows everything) what would happen before, during, and after the cross.
I am not sure where I lost you. Let me clarify, if I can. When I was a believer, I believed that Jesus knew he would die and rise again.
Now, as a none believer, I am less impressed with the cross, because I think the sacrifice looses much of it’s impact because the one who was giving his life, in reality (irony?) knew he was not really giving his life (because he would get it back, and more, in a few days).
As for being of the “persuasion” that he “knew” what was going to happen. That is what I believed, when I was a believer. Now, it doesn’t matter to much to me whether he knew or not. I am just saying that the story (of the sacrifice) would be more moving if he, Jesus, didn’t know he would come back alive, or even if he didn’t come back alive. That would be a story, in my opinion.
I hope I made my view a tad clearer.
I am not sure why I need to rethink my “bad weekend” statement. Help me understand. And fishon, please don’t make to much fun of me in your sermon.
berrenmind, I am not sure why Jesus would have to “believe” what he “knew”. I guess it is not important, the distinction between the words. I guess I equate “belief” with faith, and knowledge with facts. But again, if Jesus was God and man, the God part would know the future and the man part would just believe, concerning the future. It all makes no sense to me, but I guess that is when belief comes into play.
BTW, I bet if you use your imagination, you could think of some methods of torture and execution that are worse than the cross. I know I can.
Bob,
No, I won’t be making fun of you. Promise. I will be warning my folks about some of the dangers of the “Emergent[ing]” church teachings. That is, some of what their guru’s declare and don’t declare. Thought you define your self as a Non-believer, your statement “bad weekend” will fit in nicely.
You said, “Help me understand,” in reference to “bad weekend.” No, Bob, I am not going to get into that, here. Besides, and I don’t mean this to be offensive, but what I would have to say wouldn’t do anything to change your mind; what I would have to say is not profound enough. And you as once a believer and now a non-belieiver, my words would ring hollow. If the Holy Spirit has lost His impact upon you, well I would be a fool to think anything I said would make sense.
But again, though I don’t know you or know where you are from, I will NOT make fun of the UNknown Bob.
fishon
fishon:
“If the Holy Spirit has lost His impact upon you, well I would be a fool to think anything I said would make sense.”
sounds like an insult cloaked in religiobabble.
NP,
You would assuming incorrectly as far as a cloaked insult. Not one wiff of insult was in any of my intent.
As far as “religiobabble,” well if that is what it sounds like to you–ok! Of course I would like to know what part of that sentence you believe to be “religiobabble?
Throwing out statements like “sounds like…religiobabble” is the game the “emergents” play. Make a strawman, then not back it up. So my friend, what part is ‘religiobabble?’
HEY SHELLY, SEE WHY?
fishon
fishon:
it’s because sometimes you say things that you obviously think are true. you also think they are so true that they are unquestionable. so you make the grand assumption that because someone claims to not believe in the same way you do, or not at all, the holy spirit has lost their effect on them. and you seem to think, because you don’t think it’s an insult, that everyone will agree with that statement, including “bob”. i think it is a false statement because you can’t know where the spirit is or isn’t working. you can’t possibly make that claim. at what point do you claim that the spirit has lost effect on someone? when they go insane, change into an animal and eat grass like an ass out in the wilderness?
this blog has been a forum for people who doubt, question, disbelieve, and have experienced abuse, dehumanization and oppression in the church, as well as for others who have not… to express themselves. you are more than welcome. but you sometimes come across as someone who has the answers, is confident of yourself, and can fix some of these people. sometimes you come across as, well, superior. i know you don’t mean it, but that’s how you come across. sometimes.
that’s why.
David,
I don’t have the answers; I believe the Bible does, without a doubt.
Yes, I am very confident in my self–but only because of Christ.
I can’t fix anyone, but I can take them to God Word, which I do quite frequently on your blog, and there are answers to many, many of mankinds problems.
And Yes, I believe there are some things that are, as you say, ’so true that they are unquestionable.’
Yes, I do make many assumptions, but you are wrong, None of them are “grand.”
Not much I can do about the ‘insult’ thing. Like Bob said, “Darn internet thingy.” Some times it just comes off that way with the written word.
And I was pretty sure you didn’t think me to think myself ’superior.’ And I imagine I do come off like that to some, but not to all.
I do believe why some would consider me as feeling superior is because we live in a time in, North America, where having ‘ABSOLUTE’ confidence in your faith, and expressing it [poor at times], and having no doubts about it, is considered having a superior attitude.
Would you or would you not agree, there are those who call themselves Christian who would label me as ‘intolerant,’ ‘bigoted,’ and displaying a ’superior’ attitude when I say, Islam is a pagan religion? I guess what I am saying is, if someone wants to label me as “feeling superior” because I am confident in the truth, so be it. I can live with it. And I can still be friends with that person who labels me that, if he wants to be. And I have an Islamic friend who does label me as ‘intolerant.” Yep, he considers me a friend. You see, I am no threat to him, why? because he believes I am a pagan and tells me so, and I can handle it.
Oops, wife calling for dinner.
I have said way more than enough.
jerry
David,
Something else came to mind as I was taken a shower.
“If the Holy Spirit has lost His impact upon you, well I would be a fool to think anything I said would make sense.”
You make reference that that statement would be insulting to Bob. Of course Bob would ultimately answer that, but I am going to assume that as a self-discribed ‘non-believer,” Bob would not be insulted by that. He is a non-believer, so why in the world would that be an insult to him???
That would be like my friend telling me “You can know nothing of the ‘deep’ things and the truths in the Koran because you don’t believe Muhammad was THE Prophet.” I am a “non-believer” in Muhammad an the Koran, so that wouldn’t be an insult at all. Would you be insulted if someone told you that you can not understand the religion of Wickan because you don’t believe in it????
Enough. I won’t bore you more on the subject.
jerry
Truth often allows silence to do the talking.
Assumpion must always have the last word.
Truth is always truth, whether it is spoken or it is silent.
1+1=2 whether you say it or not.
Assumpion may get the last word, but it may not be the truth.
EXAMPLE: Millions assume that Jesus IS NOT “the way and the truth and the life.”
But they will wake up dead, and then where will their assumption be when
they face truth? “Jesus!”
fishon
like i said…
Fishon,
I have a little story for you. My daughter has a pet mouse who recently got sick so we took him to the vet. (Yeah, I’m a sucker for a cute face.) The vet came in and asked if he bit. My daughter said no. The vet reached over top of him and grabbed him by the back to pick him up. Shocked and afraid he bit her so hard it drew blood. A few days ago he had to go back to the vet. It was a different doctor who knew of our mouse’s reputation. She quietly put her hands open in front of him, let him sniff her and gently coaxed him onto her hand. He went calmly and she did her examination.
Why am I telling you this? Because both vets wanted to help their patient and they were both well meaning. I think sometimes you come off as grabbing people roughly when you quote scripture and say that people are “silly” in their beliefs. That’s why you get bitten.
Now about your response to np, I don’t think any of us can claim to have cornered the market on faith. Jesus said faith the size of a mustard seed would move a mountain and I don’t see many flying around but we all have some to one degree or another and I think Jesus probably had the most of all of us. However, I think we cannot underestimate His “maness” and I think we do that if we don’t acknowledge His feelings about what he was about to go through. He sweat drops like blood in the garden. He cried out to God to not make Him go through it but then said He would. He was afraid and any man would be. Is it a sin to be afraid of physical torture and execution? He felt forsaken and alone. He was. He had never been separated from God before and God turned away from Him because Jesus had taken on the sin of the world. “My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?” These don’t sound to me like words that come a man filled with certainty. He sounds confused and afraid. For me this is part of the mystery of our God that Paul speaks of many times. Jesus was fully God, yes, but He was also fully man.
(Bob, you are right there are many horrible ways to die and many men have endured horrendous torture and died terrible deaths at the hands of other men. The unique thing about the Jesus I love is He could have walked away at any moment. He could have silenced the riddicule, he could have wiped the mockers of the face of the earth. He could have jumped off the cross and healed His wounds instantly. But because of His love for me. Me personally, He stayed there. I was the reason He did what God asked Him to do. I was the treasure in the field He gave everything He had to possess. His very life paid for my sins. He wasn’t even getting what was coming to Him, He took what was coming to me. He did it for me. And you. And Jerry. And Dave. For everyone. He did it for the world but He would have done it for just me. Maybe as He hung there He thought of each of us and stayed because of our faces before Him. I don’t know but I know it was love that kept Him there.)
Getting back to the faith question. For me faith is believing something will happen but not being able to imagine how or when it could be possible. I can say I know Jesus died for me and I know he will ressurect me and I know I will spend eternity with Him but at the same time I am like the father of the possessed boy, I cry out, “Lord, I believe. Help me in my unbelief.” When Jesus spoke to Thomas after the ressurection He said that it was great that, having put his hand in Jesus’ wounds, he believed, but He added, “Blessed are they who have not seen and yet have believed.” Jesus knew it would be hard for us sometimes. I believe He knew we would have doubts. He didn’t condemn Thomas for his doubts and He doesn’t condemn us for ours. He loves us for our efforts. Abraham was a friend of God’s because when God said “Go!”, he went, even though he didn’t have a clue where he was going. He made a whole lot of mistakes along the way( Ishmael for one) but God was pleased with Abraham because of his faith. Abraham died without even seeing the promise fulfilled. We see by faith not by sight.
I wonder if, sometimes, what we do in faith, because God told us to, might not look like sin to another. Fishon, what if you had followed Abraham up the mountain and as he raised the knife over Issacs body you jumped out of the bushes and grabbed the knife and said, “Thou shalt not kill!” Don’t you think if would have stolen God’s thunder a little? (I’m smiling at the thought.) Just be careful and consider how maybe God has something else in mind.
Just one last thing. I assume when you said ,”HEY, SHELLY. SEE WHY?”, you were referring to what you saw as an attack for expressing your feelings, which is what I asked you to do. As I look back I still see a lot of Scripture and hard line, black and white opinions. Righteous anger is not a sin so if you have some, express it. Tell me why you have to defend what you believe. You should defend what you believe, absolutely! Just tell us what motivates you!
God Bless all, Shelley
Shelly,
It is late, but I will make a couple of responces.
You write several things I agree with. Please know that. However, as internet debates go, they can move from the original points of contention.
My original disagreement with what NP said was about Jesus going to the cross knowing or not knowing if he would be resurrected. I disagreed with David, and I used scripture to point out his doctrinal error. And you might go back and see if what I used was refuted by scripture from anyone. Heck, I didn’t even use the one where Jesus told the thief on the cross, “I tell you the TRUTH {caps mine}, today you will be with me in paradise.”
You asked me what motivates me to defend what I believe [scripture to say]?
LOVE.
#1, Love for God/Son/Holy Spirit
#2. I Timothy 4:16, “Watch your life and DOCTRINE [caps mine] closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.”
#3. Because opinion does not superseed scriptures.
#4. Some false teaching will lead people straight to hell–and that breaks my heart.
That’s why I defend what I believe.
You asked me: ‘Fishon, what if you had followed Abraham up the mountain and as he raised the knife over Issacs body you jumped out of the bushes and grabbed the knife and said, “Thou shalt not kill!” Don’t you think if would have stolen God’s thunder a little? (I’m smiling at the thought.) Just be careful and consider how maybe God has something else in mind.”
————Shelly, I honestly don’t think that would steal ‘God’s thunder.’ Why? To use scripture again, Jesus didn’t lose any thunder when Peter did somewhat of the principle you put forth; Jesus told Peter: “Get behind me Satan.” Jesus was not marginalized in the lest little bit.
You wrote: “I think sometimes you come off as grabbing people roughly when you quote scripture and say that people are “silly” in their beliefs.”
——Shelly, if quoting scripture roughs up people, there is nothing I can do about that. Opinion from me would be worthless, when the Word of God has an obvious answer. I know, I know, some will say it is not so obvious to them, ok, but much of it is to me.
Let’s take the hot one of this modern age: “I am the way….” Now people can throw their opinions around all they want, but the fact is, he said it, and He gave no way out. But some of mankind do not like that doctrine, so they add their opinion to a stated fact said by Jesus. I will take His word every time. Hey, there are a lot of things Jesus said and taught I don’t like. But it has nothing to do with me liking what He taught. It is about whether I believe and follow it.
Lastly, you see, David threw out an opinion about an important aspect of who Jesus is. He used the words “I don’t think he was certain.” But to make a statement like that about such an important issue and not back it up with scripture is quite dangerous. If David had given even one scripture to back-up his “I think,” then maybe, just maybe I would be studying that scripture in comparison to those I gave for proof that what he “thinks” was wrong [ok, I said silly].
Anyway, thank you for your kind responce. I do need to hit the hay. Cause I have some words of David’s and Bob to present before the congregation tomorrow. And as I promised Bob, I won’t be making fun of them–but I will point out their error–by using scripture—-anything else would just be my worthless opinion.
MAKE IT A GREAT DAY.
fishon [jerry]
Fishon, is there any mystery in God for you? I thought you would say love was your motivation but you only mentioned love for “God/Son/Holy Spirit. The second greatest commandment is to “love your neighbour”. Did you miss David’s point about people on this forum speaking from a place of being abused, dehumanized and oppressed by the church?
It wasn’t someone throwing out some questions about what we believe that made me question my faith. It was someone quoting scripture to me. I have questioned your motives because I believe them to be ineffectual in this forum. Obviously they work for you in other arenas.
I feel very sad that you are going to use Bob and David to warn your congregation about “emergent” beliefs. I don’t know what that means but it sounds like (to use a new word I’ve heard) “religiobabble”. You can enlighten me if you like.
As I look at the scripture you quoted, I don’t think you really answered the question. Yes, Jesus said He would raise the temple in three days. I believe He said it in faith, which is the point I was trying to make. If you are saying Jesus didn’t need faith because He (being fully Diety) could “see” the future when we can’t then I quess I have a problem with Him being able to relate to my condition of being human.
What do you think Jesus was thinking when He asked God why He had been forsaken?
I had better go get ready for church. I wonder what David will speak on?
God Bless, Shelley
Well, it’s Sunday. I don’t read very fast, so I tend to skim. I don’t know if this is a product of web surfing or what, but I just don’t spend the time I feel I should, reading every ones comments.
Just a few observations for those who may come back to this post:
fishon - “You said, “Help me understand,” in reference to “bad weekend.” No, Bob, I am not going to get into that, here.”
Personally, I would never make a comment on what someone said, then when asked to explain, decline. All that does is make me wonder if I said something stupid, insulting, or profound.
fishon - “If the Holy Spirit has lost His impact upon you, well I would be a fool to think anything I said would make sense.”
Well, I don’t really feel insulted. You can’t help it. You believe the verse; “The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that parish.” I have asked numerous Christians who use that verse against me, to offer any bible passage to me, to put me (and it) to the test, to see if I will not understand it. They never respond.
Actually, I believe I understand far more about the bible than I did when I was a believer, and believed the Holy Spirit was impacting my life.
So, I was not really insulted, but I think it is a form of “holier than thou” speak that many aggressive believers fall back on when their argument falters. That has been my experience…just my experience.
fishon - “And as I promised Bob, I won’t be making fun of them–but I will point out their error–by using scripture—-anything else would just be my worthless opinion.”
Can I make a guess - You will offer a few verses, but will spend the vast majority of your sermon offering opinion and using verses to back up your opinion. I have sat in church before. That is what most ministers do, they give a few key verses, then expound on them with a lot of opinion. I have no problem at all with that. But I consider it dishonest to say you are going to “point out their error–by using scripture”, then pointing out that opinions are worthless, when in fact, most of your sermon will be opinion. It sounds good, and makes you look, perhaps, holy in the view of your followers, but to the outsider, me, it just looks like a tactic.
Anyway, I would like to know where I am in error? I have no problem admitting that my view may not conform to your biblical view, but that does not mean my view is in error unless your biblical view is the truth, but since you only believe, but do not know, all you can do is offer opinion, correct?
I hate to keep harping on this, but when it comes to belief, we are dealing largely with opinion, so I consider all opinions to be valuable, not worthless.
Shelley, I am not ignoring your comments. I may come back to them eventually.
Just my thoughts.
bob
lets_reason@yahoo.com
Shelly,
I am slightly perplexed as to why you would wonder why I might not see any “mystery” in God? Of course, you might not be being sarcastic and really mean it as an honest question, so, Yes, there are unto numbers of ‘mystery’ of God for me.
YOU: I thought you would say love was your motivation but you only mentioned love for “God/Son/Holy Spirit. The second greatest commandment is to “love your neighbour”.
——Gee, I thought #1,2,4 made that clear to you that I do ‘love’ my neighbor.
YOU: Did you miss David’s point about people on this forum speaking from a place of being abused, dehumanized and oppressed by the church?
———-No, I haven’t missed it. Wow, I could tell you of a dosey that happened to me. It was awful. I never have had any pain like it before or since. But I won’t bore you with it.
So you question my motives! No problem there. You don’t know me. I haven’t earned your’s or anyones trust on this blog. You say my “motives” are “ineffectual in this forum.” Not quite sure what you mean by that? I would agree, my positions may be ineffectual in this forum, but then we really don’t know who all is lurking out there and I may strike a cord?
Bob didn’t seem to be to bothered by me using what he said in my sermon. He was just hoping/asking that I wouldn’t make fun of him. I did NOT. By the way, do you know what some of the “self-described” ‘emgergent’ pastors and teachers teach and say in their books????? If me using the term “emergent beliefs” sounds like “religionbabble,” I suggest you Google the term emergent.
You say something very interesting: Yes, Jesus said He would raise the temple in three days. I believe He said it in faith, which is the point I was trying to make.
——I believe that weight of biblical evidence shows that Jesus had “faith” {No use giving scripture cause I would be accused of slinging…by some; besides, many on hear would rather have opinions than scripture}. But also, Jesus had “knowledge” that no one else had. Would you agree with that? He would even tell people what they were thinking. So, when Jesus tells the theif of the cross, “…today you will be with me in paradise,” Jesus showed no sign of faith in that, but displayed his “knowledge” that it would happen. Oh, well, we could go in circles all day.
YOU: What do you think Jesus was thinking when He asked God why He had been forsaken?
————I HAVEN’T A CLUE. It is one of those mysteries that I will ask Jesus about when I meet Him face to face.
I trust you had a great day of worship.
Yes, David, what was your message about, today?
fishon
Bob,
YOU: fishon - “You said, “Help me understand,” in reference to “bad weekend.” No, Bob, I am not going to get into that, here.”
Personally, I would never make a comment on what someone said, then when asked to explain, decline. All that does is make me wonder if I said something stupid, insulting, or profound.
Ok Bob, you make a point, so I will answer as best I can. You gave me 3 options, so I will relay the one that best discribes reason I did not answer. I believe what you said was stupid.
Also, to say “…he knew this was just going to be a bad weekend…,” is to demean the curse of all mankind that He was taking upon himself on the Cross. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree.
For me, to say what took place on the Cross, which was much more than just Jesus dying a miserable death, thousands had already done that, and thousands more would, is to belittle, demean, to make lite of, and to take away from the significance of bearing the sins of mankind upon himself.
For me, a ‘bad weekend’ use to discribe a huge drunk and a miserable hangover. Now that’s a bad weekend. But to take ALL of mankinds sins upon himself–well, that is UNDISCRIBABLE. So, my friend, there’s my answer.
I am trying to decide whether to answer any more? Let me think about it. Ok, I will a little.
YOU: fishon - “If the Holy Spirit has lost His impact upon you, well I would be a fool to think anything I said would make sense.”
Well, I don’t really feel insulted. You can’t help it. You believe the verse; “The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that parish.” I have asked numerous Christians who use that verse against me, to offer any bible passage to me, to put me (and it) to the test, to see if I will not understand it. They never respond.
———-Ok, Bob, I put you to the test.
John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” Meaning please.
John 14:6, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Meaning please.
John 10:33, “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man claim to be God.” Meaning please.
Acts 4:12, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Meaning please.
Acts 5:29, “Peter and the other apostles replied: ‘We must obey God rather than men!” Meaning please.
1 Tim. 4:16, “Watch your life and DOCTRINE [caps mine] closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.” Meaning please.
Finally, 2 Tim. 4:3-4, “For a time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great mumber of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” Please explain.
Since you said “They never respond,” I thought I might make up a little for that. I do look forward to your responces.
I tell you what, Bob, if you don’t answer, I will understand. I am sure you are as busy as I am, and I had the Sunday afternoon to consider what you have written and asked. So if you don’t answer, it will not infer you don’t have and opinion about the scriptures I gave.
I guess I will end with this. You hang on to your opinion; I will rely on the Truth of the Bible.
fishon
Fishon, Do you have an email or you can find my email on my web site. Wanted to discuss a point. Thanks, Shelley
Shelley,
I e-mailed you just a moment ago. 7:50 P.M., Pacific time.
fishon
Just a few comments:
fishon - “Ok Bob, you make a point, so I will answer as best I can. You gave me 3 options, so I will relay the one that best discribes reason I did not answer. I believe what you said was stupid.”
First, please allow me to apologize. I understand that my comment was very insensitive. The cross of Jesus is the most significant of Christian beliefs. I should have taken the time, been more careful, in my choice of words. That can happen I guess, when what is so important to someone, is of no importance to another. I am sorry.
Now for the “but”. I don’t quite see how my choice of words was “stupid”. I do see how they were offensive though.
fishon - Ok, Bob, I put you to the test.
John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” Meaning please.”
Can I do just one? Yes, I am busy, and running behind.
Well, I was taught that Jesus is the word of God. He has existed from the beginning, and he was with God from the beginning, as a part of the trinity, but being fully God, he was God.
That is what I learned in church and in my reading.
Am I correct in my explanation?
Ok, one more:
John 14:6, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Meaning please.”
Judging from the verses around this one, Jesus seems to be saying to trust in him, for he is the way to heaven (the way to the father), which is where Jesus is going soon.
Wondering why you chose these verses?
bob