tee-shirt idea: creation meets evolution

Posted in art, humour by nakedpastor on the April 14th, 2008

cartoon, christianity, church, comic, creation, evolution, funny, god, humour, science, t shirt, tee shirt

34 Responses to 'tee-shirt idea: creation meets evolution'

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Geoff Matheson said, on April 14th, 2008 at 7:47 pm

I’m pretty sure this leaves nobody happy! Fantastic
Fred said, on April 14th, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Are you suggesting being “unequally yoked”?

Let’s see how far that one will go…
barrenmind said, on April 14th, 2008 at 9:03 pm

is that how fishes do it??

funny !!!
fishon said, on April 15th, 2008 at 12:03 am

No wonder you are miserable most the time.
You think that’s art.
You think that is Christ-like.
To bad you are using what I see as real talent on garbage like that.
Looks like something a 6th grade boy would draw.
Oh, your choir will sing your praises–sing choir, sing.
And, many of your fans will be glad I am gone.
To bad I won’t be around to listen to their songs and rants.
It is going to take about 5 seconds to delete—starting now~
good-by
fishon
John Monaghan said, on April 15th, 2008 at 3:33 am

I like his little fishy legs.
nakedpastor said, on April 15th, 2008 at 5:50 am

i hardly EVER comment on my own posts or respond to criticism, but come on fishon! how do you draw the christian fish or the evolution fish more elegantly? scales? fins? boots? what? and that’s not the point. the point is that the evolutionists that scorn and ridicule creationists mirror the creationists who scorn and ridicule the evolutionists. does anyone see that the pompous arrogance of, say, dawkins, towards christians is THE SAME problem as christian’s pompous arrogance towards him? i would love to see communication between the two camps with open minds instead of diatribe. wouldn’t you?
bob said, on April 15th, 2008 at 8:16 am

fishon obviously thinks any public reference to sex is dirty. Wonder where he got that attitude from?

David, I don’t think the “two camps” will come together in our lifetime.

And for the record, I don’t think Dawkins displays pompous arrogance. I have seen numerous videos of him speaking, and he seems soft spoken, intelligent, and confident. He just takes off the kid gloves when dealing with the faithful. Same with Sam Harris. He just speaks his mind and points out what he considers to be absurd.
With Dawkins, maybe it’s the British accent…
nakedpastor said, on April 15th, 2008 at 8:21 am

Bob: I see what you mean. Maybe I should retract that a bit. What I mean is when he lightly dismisses faith or Christianity as stupid and irrational. He sounds just like an evangelist, just different words.
bob said, on April 15th, 2008 at 11:04 am

David, can you give me an idea of how a non believer, lets say and engaging atheist, who considers religious faith to be irrational, is to express his idea about religious faith without offending Christians? If he considers religious faith to be irrational (based on emotional reactions to mythological and / or superstitious claims) how is he to express himself? How is he to “dismiss” faith other than “lightly”?
I strongly disagree with the comparison of Dawkins attitude or actions to that of an evangelist. One is trying to get you to believe like he does, the other is trying to get you to think about why you believe as you do.
David, your verbal reaction to Dawkins seems almost emotional, to me. Nothing wrong with that, but if it is emotional, do you know why?
societyvs said, on April 15th, 2008 at 11:54 am

I would wear the t-shirt - and I’d even get ‘fishon’ emblazed in the back with the number 69…LOL…it’s called humor fishon.
thebutler said, on April 15th, 2008 at 12:37 pm

Love it!

I got Richard Dawkins’ BBC documentaries on DVD from a colleague, as ‘proof’ of how the atheists and humanists are attacking christianity and how some are hoping to eliminate it.

But after watching them I became a bit of a fan!
Richard Dawkins must be the first scientist who makes ‘atheism’ sexy!

And I’ve been saying it a lot ever since; the two camps should stop their silly arguments!

CS Lewis didn’t seem to go much for the ‘us and them’ approach to creation/evolution, which I found intrigueing at the time I first noticed it.

Now, I would invite Dawkins to speak at church and try and have lively debate.

I find he’s a charming guy, who speaks his mind, and even though I think he misses the point of faith in Jesus (possibly because of all the confusion there is abou it).

But I think some of the questions Richard Dawkins asks should be asked IN CHURCH. The people who have a firm belief that here is no God have a message for the church. We should listen. I think God will move when we have dialog with them.

And I also think some of the people who believe there is no God are waiting to come back to Him. But we’re the ones who must open the doors for them and show grace, understanding and openness.
We CAN help make that difference!
bob said, on April 15th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

thebutler, I am speechless…well, almost. I don’t think I disagree with anything you said.

Maybe I will ask one question: Is there anything wrong (pick your word - sinful, depraved, dangerous, etc) with being an atheist?

If a Christian answers, YES, then I, as an atheist, will attempt to engage them in a heated debate, usually ending badly. For it is that Christian that I feel is in need of a reality slap right across the cheek.
If a Christian answers, NO, then we can talk about the weather.

So, I guess I am trying to understand your last few sentences, butler: “And I also think some of the people who believe there is no God are waiting to come back to Him.” I don’t disagree, but being one of those who left the faith, 8 years ago this month, I have absolutely no desire to regain my faith, though I am sure there are others who may be leaning in that direction. So, is it “wrong” of me to like where I am? Am I wrong where I am right now, in your view?

“But we’re the ones who must open the doors for them and show grace, understanding and openness.
We CAN help make that difference!” I think that is a wonderful sentiment. But what is your motivation? Is it to try to lead me and others back to faith? If so, it must be because you think where I am at is the wrong place, correct? And if I am correct in my observations, then you have to believe that being an atheist is (again, pick your own word) wrong.

It is the Christian who believes that I am going to a fiery hell, or some other kind of punishment for my unbelief, that I and many other atheists strongly react to.

So, I guess my main question is, who is the “We” in “we CAN make a difference!”, and what exactly is that difference you would like to make?

Crap, here I was speechless and just ran on and on.
nakedpastor said, on April 15th, 2008 at 3:32 pm

i’ve heard dawkins in person. and yes, he comes across as very kind. i’ve heard others say his books don’t really reflect what he’s like. all this is very fair. my original cartoon is aiming at the possibility of mutual intercourse.
bob said, on April 15th, 2008 at 4:07 pm

I get it now David. Very funny. Very witty.

I’m to stupid to live.
nakedpastor said, on April 15th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

or maybe you didn’t expect a christian to draw or so something like this?
bob said, on April 15th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

No, I just didn’t get it. I didn’t really think of a “Jesus fish” and a “Darwin fish”. I am to left-brained.
Christian Gowan said, on April 15th, 2008 at 6:48 pm

it’s unfortunate some will respond with ‘They’re advertising SEX on their T-shit! (gasp!)” and not “Hey- yea! Jesus said to love our neighbour! I agree!” Mutual Intercourse. Genious.
thebutler said, on April 16th, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Alanis Morissette once sang:
‘And all I need now is intellectual intercourse
A soul to dig the hole much deeper’

@ BOB

Thanks for your thoughts!

I think I don’t necessarily see being an atheist as being wrong, but more of a stae of being which may be temporary or, as I gather in a lot of cases; for life.
The words sinful, depraved or dangerous do not apply here in my estimation, although the first two words might apply to me.

I’d love to engage in good debate but in a way that shows mutual respect!
Maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough if I’ve confused you so?
Sorry about that.

I genuinely believe some atheists are christians who have left the church/faith because of people’s wrongdoings that got between them and God/faith/church.
They may come back if us Jesus people STOP treating them as more sinful and depraved than us of even as dangerous.

If you have decided to stay where you are than I accept that.
It’s not for me to lead you back.
Though I wish the very best for you, I have to leave it to you to make the choice.

What I mean is that those of us who have faith can make a difference by being welcoming, affirming and loving to any atheist, no matter what.
And I believe we should be like that for those who may return and for those who wish not to return.

That fiery hell thing is definately not something I would wish for you to end up in.
But I will not try to win you over with manipulative arguments and that killer of all argumjents: ‘the bible says so’.

I’m not even sure if the modern western christian interpretation of hell, with its simplistic and narrowed down explanations of the various descriptions of afterlife and godless state, even make much sense to me! I stand with those who accuse organised christianity of messing with the biblical texts.
I find it weird that the different words that were used in the original biblical texts were all translated to that one word; hell.

Atheists do well to react strongly to the hell message in understanding.

The difference I would like to make is trying to be gracious enough to allow my fellow humans who happen to be atheists to speak their mind. I’m fed up with the attitude that says: I’m right and your wrong. I find it in both christians and atheists and I think it’s helping no one!

Does this help a bit?
thebutler said, on April 16th, 2008 at 1:31 pm

In sort; I wanna make love, not theories…
:)
bob said, on April 16th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

Hey butler,

Thanks you so much for taking the time. I think I understood pretty well your initial post. I think my questions were more to see if, by your answers, I could show you that, if I am a nice person, as nice as most Christians, and if you aren’t really sure about hell, sin, all the bad stuff in the bible, and if the only difference between me and you is evident when someone asks us if we are a Christian,…then why would you,…(I am putting words in your mouth, forgive me) why would you want me, or anyone, to become a Christian, if that Christianity did not offer a real beneficial difference between you, a Christian, and me, a non christian?

I think what I was trying to understand, from your initial post, what “difference” you wanted to make. If the difference was just to give Christianity a good name, great. I am all for that. The last thing I want to do is look at Christianity and think…”nope, I want nothing to do with that” (unfortunately, that is how I feel most of the time now). But if the difference you want to make was to give Christianity a good name so that us non (or former) Christians will come back to Jesus, then you are indicating that we lack something, or “need” to come back to Jesus for some reason. So I guess I am still just a bit unclear where you might stands on a few questions:

Do I need to come back to Jesus?

Is there any reason(s) I need to come back to Jesus?

Do you, as a Christian, have anything that I should want or need, and can’t get until I am a Christian?

Not trick questions at all. But if you answer “yes” to any of them, then I believe that you are saying that there is something wrong or something lacking in being an atheist. We would have to debate that of course

Great talking to you.

bob
lets_reason@yahoo.com
thebutler said, on April 16th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

I’ll put a quick answer here. Hope you don’t mind.

I feel there’s a reason for everyone to come (back) to Jesus because we’re all lost. It’s not because our lives would be happier or we’d be more fulfilled or better at being nice or whatever.

I have nothing but God’s forgiveness, thanks to Christ.
I can’t give you it or prove it to you by showing you a shiny happy life so that you might want it too. In fact I struggle with myself and the world and also because of my srewed up upbringing. What makes me different from what I used to be, before Christ, is the process of healing, change and development through faith and dependency on God.

If you don’t have the being saved bit, that is the crucial difference (scuse the pun).

In your reckoning I am saying ‘that there is something wrong or something lacking in being an atheist.’ But I wouldn’t fully agree there.
I think there is something wrong or something lacking in not being saved by Christ. Being an atheist is only a more pronounced godless state but not the actual lacking itself.
Everybody would be in trouble, not just atheists.

Great talking to you too!
nc said, on April 17th, 2008 at 11:39 am

that’s
AWESOME!!!!

where can I get one?
seriously.
bob said, on April 17th, 2008 at 11:45 am

Hi butler,

Well, we disagree on so many points.

1 - “…we’re all lost.” I am not lost. I know exactly where I am and what I am doing. So, why would you say “we’re” all lost?

2 - “I have nothing but God’s forgiveness…” I do not need nor want God’s forgiveness. As best as I can tell, I have not offended “God”.

3 - “What makes me different from what I used to be, before Christ, is the process of healing, change and development through faith and dependency on God.” And yet you (not you, but Christianity as a whole) are really no “better” off (read-”different”) than me (not me, but non Christians as a whole).
I am not in need of “healing” at present, (though I have developed an annoying ringing in my ears) and I find no reason to depend on God because those who claim to depend on God are no better off than I am.

4 - “I think there is something wrong or something lacking in not being saved by Christ.” That is what I figured I would eventually hear. I am not in need of being “saved”. I am fine right where I am. I am in no imminent danger. And since I do not subscribe to the notion of “sin”, I do not believe I am a sinner, and have no need to be “saved” from my sins. And since I do not believe in the biblical hell (what ever it is or where ever it is) I do not believe I need to be saved from it either.

So, as you can see, (please understand, I am in no way attempting to insult you) while you claimed to desire to be welcoming, you are not;

“And I also think some of the people who believe there is no God are waiting to come back to Him. But we’re the ones who must open the doors for them and show grace, understanding and openness.
We CAN help make that difference!”

All you have offered is your belief. That, in my opinion, does not “make a difference”.
All (or perhaps most) religions have a belief. A belief, in and of it’s self, is of no value to me. And since your belief (the belief of Christians as a whole) makes no discernible difference in the daily lives of Christians, I can see no reason…REASON, why I, or any non Christian should desire to be a Christian.

So, we have come full circle. You believe what you believe, probably because of what is said in the bible, and that is the only difference between a Christian and a non Christian…belief.

I guess I don’t honestly understand why you (Christians) want me (non Christians) to become a Christian if you can offer no benefit for becoming a Christian. Claiming that escaping hell and going to heaven is the benefit doesn’t count because, in order to believe in those places, I would have to become a Christian.

Anyway, around and around we go.
nakedpastor | J Puddy.net said, on April 17th, 2008 at 1:21 pm

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shelly said, on April 17th, 2008 at 5:36 pm

Personally, I think this one is hilarious!

And since I do not believe in the biblical hell (what ever it is or where ever it is) I do not believe I need to be saved from it either.

I don’t believe in a “biblical hell” either; and I’m a Christian. No one has been, is, or will be saved from it, or cast into it, because it doesn’t exist!

The notion of “hell” or “everlasting punishment” was cooked up by Tertullian and St. Augustine during, IIRC, the fifth century. Before that, all the early church leaders taught Universal Reconciliation/Restoration (that one day, God will restore everyone to himself). There are four words (one Hebrew, three Greek) that are mistranslated as “hell” in the Bible — Sheol, Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna. The first two both refer to the grave; and everyone’s definitely going there at some point. The third word means “the depths of the grave”. The fourth is an actual place in Israel that used to be a landfill in ancient times, but is now a garden. (In fact, in regards to the New Testament, the terms “everlasting”, “eternal”, and “forever (and ever)” are mistranslated most of the time, too.)
thebutler said, on April 19th, 2008 at 4:38 am

@ bob
It’s not a belief. It’s a faith.
And I stick to what I said; you ARE welcome, even if only to hang out and check out if I’m into the faith for real or only BSing myself.
thebutler said, on April 20th, 2008 at 6:03 am

That was on my phone. Back on the laptop I can elaborate. Here goes…

[quote=”bob”]All you have offered is your belief. That, in my opinion, does not “make a difference”.
All (or perhaps most) religions have a belief. A belief, in and of it’s self, is of no value to me. And since your belief (the belief of Christians as a whole) makes no discernible difference in the daily lives of Christians, I can see no reason…REASON, why I, or any non Christian should desire to be a Christian.

So, we have come full circle. You believe what you believe, probably because of what is said in the bible, and that is the only difference between a Christian and a non Christian…belief.

I guess I don’t honestly understand why you (Christians) want me (non Christians) to become a Christian if you can offer no benefit for becoming a Christian. Claiming that escaping hell and going to heaven is the benefit doesn’t count because, in order to believe in those places, I would have to become a Christian.
Anyway, around and around we go. [/quote]

Yes. To claim benefit you must be aware of needing it. If you don’t feel you need it, you will see no need. Simple. In the end, it’s got to be your decision.

Without wanting to offend, irritate or keep going around, as you call it, I would like to add that your reaction reminds me a little bit of the closed circuit preaching of some evangelicals coming from the ‘we know the only truth’ stance and the trusting one’s own perfect theology.

In other words; the atheist belief sometimes comes across to me as just as narrow and close minded as the religious belief you seem to oppose. Now, narrow and close minded, I can say I’ve been there…

So, is this another case of one opinionated belief another opinionated belief? I was seriously wondering that as I read your words and noticed how quickly you jump to conclusions.

There have been many examples of bad religion; people claiming to ‘have a belief’, as you and many others call it, but who don’t seem to display a truly different life to match the words they speak. They fight, they argue and they hurt people and it’s no wonder that people are offended at the lack of integrity.

In the New Testament you can find quite a few warnings against such lack of integrity, so it’s not as if the writers of the letters that ended up in the Bible had no idea. The faith was muddled by people being egotistical and self serving then and that’s continued to this day.

It should be no big surprise really, because, if you find something truly different and magnificent, you can wait for people to come on board, ready to worship and then destroy it. It happens in faiths, politics, sports; you name it!

All of us, in one way or another, seem to be good at missing the point and ruining a perfectly good idea!

Richard Dawkins, in his book The God Delusion, mentions bad religion a lot and makes a point of how ‘it’ has caused so much harm. But that word ‘it’ comes up a lot! And it seems easy to blame an ‘it’ for all the problems. But I think that’s such an easy way out. Because, in the end, I think, it’s ‘us’ who cause the biggest problems.

That’s why I find hope in the idea of grace. I think we sort of deserve the hell we create but grace appears to be the escape hatch to which God has the key, which he offers to us.

That’s why forgiveness frees people (perpetrators as well as victims) and guilt can be lifted.

You may not feel any of this applies to you but there are many people who know guilt and who are very aware of their sinfulness; having hurt others, having used violence, having broken families through drug abuse, sexual abuse… I could go on, not just big sins but lots of destructive small sins as well.

In the faith I have discovered in Christ, I do not find God just sitting there being offended because we keep making stupid mistakes, although that DOES get suggested a lot.
But no, he sees us ruining the planet and hurting each other with our selfish behavior. And he puts his finger on the sore spots, the Bible is full of that.

Or would you say everyone on the planet is doing okay and we’ve got nothing to worry about?
bob said, on April 20th, 2008 at 9:56 am

Hi butler,
Thanks for taking the time. I’ll try to address a few points. I’ll start at the bottom and go backwards.

“…would you say everyone on the planet is doing okay and we’ve got nothing to worry about?”
No, I would say the planet is in a political, social, economic, and (heading toward an) environmental mess. Not quite sure why you asked me that, but that’s my answer.

“You may not feel any of this applies to you but there are many people who know guilt and who are very aware of their sinfulness; having hurt others, having used violence, having broken families through drug abuse, sexual abuse… I could go on, not just big sins but lots of destructive small sins as well.”
I DO feel that applies to me, in a sense. I have hurt people, emotionally. I carry guilt from my past wrong doings and feel regret daily. I have done wrong to people 30 years ago and still carry the guilt. Real feelings of guilt and regret. What I don’t feel guilt from is sinning against God. I don’t consider my wrong doings as sin, because from my perspective, sin is a religious term, and sin is committed primarily against God, whom I do not believe exists.

“I was seriously wondering that as I read your words and noticed how quickly you jump to conclusions.”
Well, if I did, I wish I hadn’t of, but I would need you to point out specifically where I did that so I could analyze my reactions.

“…the atheist belief sometimes comes across to me as just as narrow and close minded as the religious belief you seem to oppose.”
Again, if you could point out a specific in what I said that was close minded. If you think my disbelief in God is close minded then I would of course disagree. It is not that I WANT to disbelieve, I just find no reason to believe. But I would have to ask, if I am close minded for my disbelief, are you open minded enough to consider that your God may not exist?

“…your reaction reminds me a little bit of the closed circuit preaching of some evangelicals coming from the ‘we know the only truth’ stance and the trusting one’s own perfect theology.”
I just don’t get it. I offered a reaction to your words, that’s all. I did not try to tell you what was right or wrong, I simply offered you reasons, based on my observations of Christianity, for my lack of belief in the Christian God. How could you have possibly translated that to mean ‘we (I) know the only truth’? In no way was I telling you what I know, but only why I don’t believe.

“Yes. To claim benefit you must be aware of needing it. If you don’t feel you need it, you will see no need. Simple. In the end, it’s got to be your decision.”
Do you honestly think I have “decided” to not believe? If you do, you are wrong. Not believing is not a decision. It is an inevitable conclusion. You can’t decide to stop believing that gravity is the reason why apples fall to the ground, can you?
As best as I can tell, from my own personal experience when I became a Christian about 30 years ago, and from all the testimonies I have read and heard over the years, becoming a born again Christian is largely an emotional experience and a decision base on emotions. Leaving Christianity, for me, was emotional, but the reason I left had nothing to do with emotions. I left because of observations I had made over many years, both in my life and in the lives of the Christians around me.
So, in a nut shell, I did not “decide” to stop believing. I just stopped.

bob
lets_reason@yahoo.com
MCF Con said, on April 24th, 2008 at 5:34 pm

Ok…where the heck can I buy that shirt? Gotta have it!
Rom said, on April 25th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

@ shelly
If you don’t believe in a “Biblical hell”, what is the purpose of salvation through Christ? What exactly are you being saved from?
thebutler said, on May 2nd, 2008 at 5:04 am

Hi Bob!
Sorry, it’s been a while. I was very busy at work and then I got sick with the flu.
But here goes…

I will try to choose my words well, because it’s easy to give the wrong impression. And of course, I have to realize there are limitations, I try to see more than my view on things, but in the end, all I have is my outlook. So, I’m sorry if my words are a bit clumsy and my understanding limited. I try…

My question: “…would you say everyone on the planet is doing okay and we’ve got nothing to worry about?”
I asked that because I got the idea from your answers that you feel we are doing well and we don’t need help. Or at least, I think that’s what it was.

To me, wrongdoing and sin are the same. We sin against each other, ourselves and God. It’s all wrong. It’s not always easily pinpointed; what is sin and what isn’t, and there has been a lot of fingerpointing by those who think they know.

About jumping to conclusions: It just seems you explain away some of my reasoning as the typical christian rethoric and it becomes a clash of words. I can’t over the Internet, but I guess I would prefer you to see what I’m on about, experience what I mean. It’s the only way to get it across really.

Talking about the Atheist beliefs sometimes coming across as narrow and close minded as the religious belief you seem to oppose, I meant that in general. It’s easy for both ’sides’ to fall into that trap. I see it happen a lot. And then you end up pointing the finger based on a lot of misquoting and interpretation.

When you said: ‘So, we have come full circle. You believe what you believe, probably because of what is said in the bible, and that is the only difference between a Christian and a non Christian…belief.’ I felt a bit disappointed, because why don’t I get a say in where we are in our discussion? Why do you feel you can just round it off and declare that we’ve now said it all? I don’t think we’ve even properly started!

I do wonder… how did you end up leaving Christianity, what exactly brought you to that point of conclusion?
thebutler said, on May 2nd, 2008 at 5:05 am

The T Shirt is great! Is it for sale yet?
Nate said, on May 5th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

If you will build it… I will buy!
ed said, on May 30th, 2008 at 10:30 am

I love this idea! It should be on a t-shirt. In fact, am currently designing a few for sale. Would love to include this idea!

nakedpastor

tee-shirt idea: creation meets evolution

34 Responses to 'tee-shirt idea: creation meets evolution'

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