Dionysius Revisited?
I’ve been wondering about the Dionysian elements of our religious phenomenological experience. I say Dionysian because ecstatic manifestations of prayer, worship and miracles were elements of this religion. Some biblical scholars and historians claim, in fact, that much of early Christianity was a response or reaction to or a borrowing from the religion of Dionysius. Emotional or ecstatic expressions of prayer, worship, spirituality and intercession are demonstrated across the religious spectrum. We see it not only in some Christian sects, but also in Hindu, Islamic, Buddhist, Jewish, Voodoo, Shaman and Wican sects, to name a few. Mysticism is not Christian, but religious, and sweeps across all religious lines. Miracles are not the sole claim of Christianity, but of a segment of every religion and anti-religion in the world. Have you not heard about, not just the evangelists, but the shamans, gurus, sufis, rabbis, psychics, witch-doctors and new-age practitioners with healing and miraculous powers? As Barth would solemnly remind us, with the revelation of God came religion. The human involvement in religion and its expression is total, deep, wide, mysterious, archetypal, ancient and complex.
As Jacques Ellul would suggest:
If one would conform to a true prayer before God, one would need firmly to reject (the) seductive temptations which carry a sort of label of authenticity. Unfortunately it is the label of a false authenticity, one which man authenticates for himself when he confuses his own psychic phenomena with the hidden but solemn presence of the Lord of his life (Prayer and Modern Man, p. 24).
Are we even slightly aware of our own “psychic phenomena”? Are we even slightly aware of our unconscious powers? Are we at all cognizant of the enormous spiritual powers that are immediately accessible to us? Are we informed about the Dionysian spirit that courses its way through every faith community that gathers? Sometimes I wonder.
The fine art photo is the creation of my friend Howard Nowlan.
barth, dionysius, discernment, ellul, miracles, mysticism, naked pastor, religion, sects, theology Share This
Maybe NakedPastor should change his name to NakedGuru……Sounds very NewAgey……
hey jeff. thanks for your comment. um, i don’t see what’s new-agey about this. i’m stating my own observations of religions.
I watched derren brown on youtube “instant conversion” where he used simple techniques to bring non-believers to an experience that made them wonder if God was real. He let them know later it was just a technique. But the girl, the man, DID feel something - and why should it not be real? What other way does a God utterly beyond us, meet with us except through the senses he has given? Sure, the feelings can be false, and falsely generated - but that does not mean we should label them all as phoney
Maybe true communion with God is silent, empty of feeling; I don’t know. But I am grateful for the moments of meeting I have had (rather few, being an earthy type!); but I must not consider those events as the only time God is present, nor their lack, a sign of God’s absence
So last week, in a quiet wood with great drifts of bluebells, I contemplate, seeing things as they are, demanding nothing of them. A bumble bee flew by low level, and I noticed the wind of its wings disturbed small leaves below its path. This must happen all the time - but I saw it for the first time. Not a dionysius miracle I guess, but…
chris: nice.
Nakedpastor,
Guess I’ll have to go to Wikipedia now to learn about Dionysius. I follow the “miracles” issue you bring up, though, and remember how the Pharoeh… That guy portrayed by Yul Brynner in “The 10 Commandments” had these magicians that could replicate the miracles God did for the Jews in bondage.
David Copperfield and Chris Angel had nothing on those guys, huh?
Personally, I try to use every sense God gave me and what little sense I have to experience God. Not in public though - that might get me locked up again.
-Sam
Well, the only thing this suggests to me is that we are indeed all spiritual beings at a deeper level which the conscious mind cannot comprehend. I am sure there are false spiritual manifestations as well as there are genuine ones. Remember, God is not the only spiritual being around. He is sovereign, but there are other spiritual beings that he created to be subject to him. As I have already said, we are all spiritual beings. I believe this is because we were made in God’s image. Also, there is the reality of evil spiritual beings, such as Satan and his fallen angels to contend with. They are in direct competition with and opposition to God, so it is no surprise to me that we would find similar manifestations in all walks of spirituality. There certainly are counterfeit spirits. Some may also label unexplained human phenomenon as psychic or some other name. I am not saying that some of our experiences cannot be explained by psychology, in fact, I know they can. What I am saying is that just because it is a common experience across all religious lines doesn’t mean there isn’t the genuine article. God sent his Holy Spirit to indwell his people and on the day of Pentecost many were filled with his Spirit and ecstatic manifestations that originated from God actually happened. We just need to test the spirits to be sure we are indeed dealing with the genuine article, otherwise we will be deceived into nothing more than empty ecstatic religious experience, or worse, find ourselves dominated by some evil spiritual power we cannot control. God, however, offers us a relationship, not just experiences. When our experiences override our faith, that is where we get into trouble. If we keep our mountaintop experiences in their proper place, we are able to grow in our relationship with God and be transformed by his power, with or without, and maybe in spite of, these ecstatic experiences. Keep the faith. Blessings.
What does “ecstatic” mean in relation to the spiritual gifts described in the New Testament?
When I speak in tongues I am not ecstatic - I am completely conscious, and if I keep my eyes open (which I usually do), I am completely aware of my surroundings. When I pray for healing I am not ecstatic. When I receive unexpected spiritual impressions and ideas for other people (sometimes called “prophecy”) I am not ecstatic. When I tell negative spiritual forces to leave people alone, I am not ecstatic.
I sometimes see people in unusual consciousness states (e.g. sometimes when they fall down under prayer), although I have not experienced this myself. But even these people normally experience God’s presence in a way that I would not call “ecstatic”.
And the NT phenomena are mainly not “ecstatic” either - there are perhaps 3 or 4 instances that could be called ecstatic, but this is certainly not the rule. And modern variants may include a number of ecstatic instances, but this is certainly not the whole story, and in my view by no means the majority. (And yes, I have been watching Todd Bentley, and I have personally met John Arnott).
So what is with this suggestion that pentecostal/charismatic Christianity is an ecstatic religion? To me, this seems more like an outsider’s attempted explanation without an awful lot of first hand experience.
good point victor. i mean more than ecstatic, not just ecstatic. but i did mention healing and miraculous powers without implying ecstatic necessarily. and i’m not an outsider. i spent years in the pentecostal movement and pentecostal bible college, as well as years in a renewal and vineyard movement.
Confusing. You mean “more than ecstatic, not just ecstatic”.
But you still seem to imply in your article that you see a fundamental affinity between the New Testament on the one hand and “shamans, gurus, sufis, rabbis, psychics, witch-doctors and new-age practitioners” on the other hand.
Beyond the fundamental insight that there is more to reality than we can “see” at a material/humanist level, where do you see the similarities (and differences)?
When you say you are “not an outsider”, are you speaking in the past or the present tense?
victor: i’m talking about phenomenology. about how things look or appear. there’s nothing unique about the religious experience in Christianity. i’m not trying to pass judgment on what is valid or not here, although i am concerned about that. i’m not an outsider, presently.
for about the last 7 years, jacques ellul has been one of my favorite writers and theologians…
…as the (ficticious) spiritual director jon darrow says, we must hold with grace the ‘Glamourous Powers’, for they are so subtlely and easily purloined by the Devil and can become the phenomena of mere parlour-tricks
i think the point is well-taken for us…and turns me again and again to discernment…
merci david
Chris F.,
“What other way does a God utterly beyond us, meet with us except through the senses he has given? Sure, the feelings can be false, and falsely generated - but that does not mean we should label them all as phoney”
The answer to your question is… (drumroll)…. His Word and sacraments. Bible, preaching, baptism and Holy Communion. Things of God from outside of ourselves.
I think it would always do us well to remember that in our relationship to God that WE are the problem.
I do agree with your statement that we shouldn’t necessarily label them all (our feelings) as phoney. But (and it’s a big but), we should never trust in them. Our feelings can’t be trusted because the devil can come to us as an angel of light and that includes getting into or affecting our feelings. Gord (above in comments) did a fine job of explaining it.
Thanks!
- Steve
Thanks for your comment Steve
Of course the Word and all you mention are important and we ignore them at our peril
But I was brought up not to trust my feelings, nor myself - and it is a liberation to be told “trust yourself” When I intuitively know something - then I trust it. I check it for obvious flaws against what my mind knows, but then I go with it. And that’s precisely when I discover the surprising insght, the fresh meeting with God - and also I find I know how to respond to those coming to me for help in ways that surprise me as well as them
I have read the whole Bible many times, I pray, I hang around with God’s people, I try to take opportunities to do the good that falls to me, like all christians - so what comes out of my feelings and intuition is more likely to be right than wrong. So I can trust myself.
I hope that’s helpful - it radically changed my life