Flee to the Desert
Every once in a while I come to the realization that I don’t believe in church as it is. I don’t wish to support it. I don’t want to perpetuate its existence. I don’t want to reinforce its rules, its politics, its agendas, its programs. I want to get out of it altogether. I yearn to remove myself from this game completely and forever. I want, like the earliest hermits such as St. Anthony in Egypt, to retreat to the remotest desert and weave baskets. And I would do this not only as a way to get back in touch with raw simplicity and truth, but also as a demonstration of protest against the ecclesiastical system and its managers. Within, I’m done with it. When, oh when, will we ever ever realize that all we are doing with all of our ideas, visions, agendas, revolutions and reforms is tweaking that which imprisons us? We are the captains of modification. The result: people come along, take one look at the dolled-up corpse of our refined church, and say, “My, it looks really good!” just before we close the casket!
I don’t know how to do this. I don’t know how we, as friends of faith, can gather together without the complications of structure, institution, government, mores, politics, laws, hierarchy, expectations, agendas and goals interfering with community. I don’t know how we can stop church from obstructing fellowship. I don’t know how we can stop religion from murdering humanity. It’s almost like our marriage is getting in the way of our love. Can it be done? I have to believe it can and must be done. Otherwise, the demons have won.
I had a dream the other night. There was a river bed and a river flowing through it. This riverbed was Jesus. So the river was somehow Jesus too. This river was somehow within me, like within my chest. Suddenly, the river began to become engorged until it overflowed its banks. Then this river covered the whole earth. I awoke in a cloud of peace and joy. But I also awoke deeply troubled because this has practical implications for my life that I haven’t even begun to unpack yet.
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I don’t believe in church as it is either. I have pretty much left it. Every time I affiliate myself with a “Christian” organization it becomes about structure and vision and expansion instead of fellowship. I’m tired. Just sick of it.
I long for the river to overflow everything–for Christ to just wash over everything and flood our silly structures. I long for it theologically, but as you said, the practical aspects are a little scary!!
Dreams are powerful. I had one myself last night involving houses and missing cars and a vampire in Midwestern clothing who was bent on destroying everything I valued. I woke up with the realization that no matter how evil something is, there is something/someone/someforce within me that is more powerful.
That thing within is something I can’t explain, don’t understand, and won’t control–but it comforts me even in its massive wildness. I can’t help but want more of it. It seems to dwell in the desert. How can I get a one-way ticket?
We just left a church that wounded us deeply, spiritually and emotionally. It wasn’t leaving that hurt but the manner in which we were “reassigned” was just another example of how hurtful churches can be. There are some people in church leadership that say they love you but treat you like they have been divinely placed over you and are better than you. They run their church like a club with an inner circle that has been “anointed” to be ministry leaders. They pick their friends to lead ministries and programs even when these “leaders” have little leadership qualities, no spark, and don’t have a clue what to do. When you say something they tell you that you are being disobedient. When you complain they tell you that you are under the influence of a demon or evil spirit. You can try to force your way in but they’ll treat you different from the people they have chosen – the people they like.
There are a lot of churches out there that start off with good intentions but end up hurting a lot of people. They get wrapped up in healing their congregations. Their focus turns inward and they start analyzing everyone so that they can “save” them from demons that they determine people have. They think that they have a divine mission to help other Christians and sit themselves up on a pedestal because they think that they have special gifts or that they know more. They think that they are somehow closer to God than you. It’s not true. They really don’t mean any harm. They have been distracted and have lost the focus of what out mission as Christians really is – see Matthew 28:18-20.
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34).
I am often reminded that Jesus once said He had “not where to lay His head” and I lean on that verse in Hebrews that admonishes us to go forth unto Him “without the (outside the) camp”. I long ago defined “church” as being God’s obstacle course: survive twenty years and you’re ready for heaven. Some see it as a “hospital for sinners”. I find it as much a mission field as anything overseas, its back door swinging as often as its front door, people leaving having been wounded along the way. Only in the reality of Christ, in the depths of such waters as you speak, is there found that which He promised. Isaiah 30:15…..”and ye would not”
“That thing within is something I can’t explain, don’t understand, and won’t control–but it comforts me even in its massive wildness. I can’t help but want more of it. It seems to dwell in the desert.”….you say it well, ttm!
I believe in that old saying, “Those that want a perfect church, don’t want the church.”
The church stinks because it is ‘people’. People stink.
When the disciples wanted to stay up on the mount of Transfiguration and bask in the glory of God and build temples to worship in, Jesus said, ‘nothin’ doin’! ‘We are going to go back down there, amongst the stinky people and do a job.’
The Church is messy work. Being a Christian is messy business. It’s not all fun and games and blissful singing and great potlucks.
While we are down here we suffer for awhile. Then we receive our reward. Even if one were to leave the church, would they think things would be better out there …in the jungle of this world?
No way. This beautiful and wonderful world, with beautiful and wonderful people can really stink at times and there is no escaping it, except maybe for a few days in the mountains, or on a beach on vacation, or once in awhile in a great dream. But then it’s back to reality. The kingdom of heaven will not be realized here.
Who said anything about a perfect church??? I agree that there is no such thing but I’m also sick of hearing that cliche. I have also realized that “I don’t believe in church as it is.” There is something fundamentally wrong with it - not people. Every church I’ve attended is pretty much the same; a pastor, a congregation, and a committee or five. It’s a lot of talk but very little action and that’s not what I’m getting out of my Bible. It is definately not better out there but that is where we are supposed to be. Not locked behind the church doors being fed by the annointed once a week. But what I’ve found is that churched aren’t made for this, especially now. They are pretty much all the same; some singing (worship & praise), anouncements, a sermon, prayer, an offering, a dismissal for the week. I want to do more. So either I’m in the wrong church or there is no right church for me.
preach on! the church has sold it’s soul. or has it? maybe we’ve come to understand church incorrectly. church biblically is a group of people. two or three people have Jesus in their small gathering. the church is not the buildings, not the rock or the stone or even the polity and institutes, it is the people. it is of the people and by the people, yet we’re always getting steamrolled by what we created i.e. church and government… and computers (ala terminator and the matrix, but i digress).
Jesus said, “If your leaders say to you, ‘Look, the (Father’s) kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father’s) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. (Gospel of Thomas #3).
We gotta keep this in mind. My role as a future pastor will be to serve as a reminder to God’s people that they are children of God.
Dennis,
The Church has been like this (messed up) in ALL it’s forms! ” There is something fundamentally wrong with it - not the people.” Are you kidding me? Do you think the form is the problem? The problem lies with the ones who are the Church. The broken, sinful selves that makes up the Church. You might be tired of hearing about”perfect church” cliches, and I’m tired of people looking for Shanga-la here on earth…especially in the Church!
The Holy Spirit calls people of all different likes and dislikes and brings them together for a couple of hours a week, that they might worship their Lord together and hear God’s Word.
That’s not going to happen at the ballgame, or the Rotary Club, or the Audoban Society where people are there because they are interested in the same thing.
If it were not for a weekly gathering of my church, I would never choose to be with 90% of those people, and they wouldn’t choose to be with me.
When you figure out some sort of church that makes you comfortable and that you like …let me know. In the meantime I won’t hold my breath.
- Steve M.
I’m not holding mine either.
Dennis,
I, too, have had people tell me that they believe the reason I’ve left church is because I’m a perfectionist looking for the perfect group of people. For awhile, I let those comments manipulate me. I AM a recovering perfectionist–I used to always look for the ideal, strive for more than excellence, and expect others to be just as hard on themselves as I was on me. A lot of that futile, perfectionistic thinking was instigated by, molded by, and expected by institutional churches.
Now, that I have let myself out of the church-box, so to speak, I’m less inclined to seek perfection and more inclined to just love people for who they are without judgments and expectations. (Some of my former “targets” have commented on the unbelievable transformation.) Sometimes I miss the corporate worship–the singing and the communion–but mostly I’ve begun to see that God can speak more directly to me when I don’t have an institutional buzz and hum ringing in my ears.
I have found a small Bible study group which is an arm of an institutional church, so in a way I’m still a part of the proverbial machine. But, should the institution start impinging upon the authenticity, free thinking, and love the group shares, I would be the first to recommend we leave the institution while supporting one another. And, hard as it is, I would be willing to walk alone. In my humble opinion, God is the only “perfection” with which we should be consumed.
Even if there’s no “right” church for you (or for me), our hearts can still be “right” because the Perfect One has made it so. I wish you and your family well in your journey with God–with or without The Institution.
Even if there’s no “right” church for you (or for me), our hearts can still be “right” because the Perfect One has made it so. I wish you and your family well in your journey with God–with or without The Institution.
Amen to that!
This is odd timing for me - I just attended church these last 2 weeks and I can feel for Dennis in this quote “They are pretty much all the same; some singing (worship & praise), anouncements, a sermon, prayer, an offering, a dismissal for the week”. Seen that the last 2 weeks - and I want more as well!
My problem is the lack of community this institution is supposed to be in support of - according to the original disciple community as a comparison. They were like family in those texts and shared everything one with another…the church I see now is like a bunch of individuals staring forwards having little to no connection with one another besides the fact they are Christians in the church building at the same time.
That’s the part that bothers me the most - this instiution could do so much more and have so much more meaning - yet it doesn’t…it holds down the ‘norms of the system’ and not a hell of a lot more. I left for 7 years to find church hasn’t changed - it’s the same - that’s very very sad. It’s like going through the motions until they become an apathetic part of your being.
Maybe the retreat from the structure is the best thing - I mean I want a community of people that desire to follow God - church just lacks the living touch (actually, and I hate to be this honest, it seems more dead in nature). It’s a harsh critique but I see so much for the church than what it currently is.
Exactly! I know that being fed and community and coporate worship and fellowship are important but it’s like there is only one or two templates that everyone uses and calls it church. We went to a church once that claimed to “break the mold.” They were the same and when we pointed it out we became very unpopular and eventually left. We’ve been back recently and guess what? They don’t use that saying anymore. They actually dispise it now.
I see so many bored people in church - especially the young. I see “worship teams” and choirs and pastors giving it their all and luke warm congregations that “can’t get into it.” It’s not the congregation’s fault. What are we doing??? Why is it like this???
Has anyone ever considered that it IS the way we do church. Can anyone even think “outside the box” anymore? Or are we so locked into 2000 years of religious institutionalized church that the best we can do is change to order of the songs each week?
[…] In defense of committees Published May 20, 2008 Church life Deb and Dave are worn out with church committees, politics, structure, and all the other stuff that sometimes overtakes everything else we do. They both want more open and honest encounters and discussions than you encounter at your typical finance committee meeting. […]
What’s the matter with some of you people. You moan and groan and complain about the church and ‘all its complications of structure, institution, government, mores, politics, laws, hierarchy, expectations, agendas and goals.’ But you won’t do anything about it. All I hear is a bunch of quiters.
So you left the church for 7 years, went back and it hasn’t changed. It is very sad. Might I suggest going to the Baghdad Christian Church. Or maybe you might try the Addis Ababa Community Church. try a home church in Abuja, where my daughter worships. If you really want change, give one of them a try. I guessing my daughter will not see you soon, so I won’t tell her you are coming. No, you really don’t want real change, you only want YOUR kind of change; comfortable change.
You want a church that “breaks the mold?” I have a missionary friend that can use you RIGHT NOW in Morocco. No complicated structure there; just survival.
Seems as if some of you complainers are having trouble thinking “out of the box.” You want out of the box? Slip on over to Myanmar, hunt down the “Karen Christians,” then make your complaints to God. I dare you.
“I mean I want a community of people that desire to follow God.” TRY THE SUDAN. I doubt if you want it that bad!
You want out of “our silly structures” of church. SIGN UP WITH THE VOICE OF THE MARTYRS. They may send you to a place that the only church structure is YOU. Bet you won’t sign up, though.
You who are complaining so much about the,modern, North American church, and who dream of the like fellowship of the Church of Jerusalem, 1st century, there are literally MILLIONS of lost souls just waiting for YOU to come and start such a fellowship. Japan is waiting for you. I can contact my cousin. Just a house church. No structure. She gave up the idea of having a family to minister to Shinto women–can I sign you up ladies?
I have a pastor friend that can set you up right now in the Congo. Any takers????? Who among you will be the first to SET UP THE IDEAL CHURCH IN ZIMBABWE? They have run ALL the Western structured churches out—Who will go????
“When, oh when, will we ever ever realize that all we are doing with all of our ideas, visions, agendas, revolutions and reforms is tweaking that which imprisons us?” Try Indonesia——-you won’t have to worry about being imprisoned by the North American church—you will have to worry about your head, however.
There are a million answers to all of you folks complaints about the church. I am guessing not a one of you will ‘think out of the box,’ and do any thing of substance about your misery.
fishon [jerry]
I can appreciate your perspective. I just don’t share it. I love the Church in all its messed-upedness. Even when it frustrates the hell out of me (which can be a lot of the time). Then again I might be suffering from Stockholm syndrome.
Wow, fishon, that’s a sermon for all of us “quitters!”
So, which country are YOU going to?
(If you go to Canada, you don’t even have to get off your horse!) ;^)
Seriously, it’s good to be reminded sometimes that our problems could be worse; but that doesn’t minimize the problems that we face right here and right now. And the American church seems to be a big problem for many people who end up at David’s watering hole.
Some of us HAVE tried to do more than groan and complain. We’ve stayed committed to the institution for years, attempted to change it from the inside out, prayed that the leaders would see that just calling it a family doesn’t make it so, and waited to see what would happen. We’ve served in ministries, reached out to newcomers, attended classes, and tried to fix what’s broken. We’ve sacrificed time, money, and family time. But all of that hasn’t done anything to change a manipulative, quasi-business, greed-based system that is more concerned with tweaks and twaddle than true transformation.
So some of us have left. Is that wrong? I don’t think so. But that doesn’t mean I must prove my commitment to the gospel by jumping on a plane to the far-flung corners of the earth. Unless, of course, I’m called. Which at this point, I’m not. But thanks for the encouragement not to abandon the command to live out the gospel wherever I live.
Good, great, and often, “my thoughts….”
~ Scott
ttm,
So, which country are YOU going to?
——It’s America for me. It is in the middle of Wheat fields, pastoring a very small, rural church. We are probably closer to the type of Church David dreams of than the one he pastors.’ For him to say:::”I want to get out of it altogether. I yearn to remove myself from this game completely and forever. I want, like the earliest hermits such as St. Anthony in Egypt, to retreat to the remotest desert and weave baskets,” is a big indication that he is NOT full of joy where he is at.
I ride Arabians, so the fall off my horse [high] wouldn’t be to far.
Yes, ttm, you are right. Problems in the World don’t minimize the problems many people are facing right now. But sometimes, if we consider some of the problems the World’s Christians are facing, then maybe we can put some of our problems in perspective.
You may not be called of God to jump on a plane to the far-flung corners of the earth, but I know this; you are NOT called to NOT attend the “apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer,” with Christians on a regular bases, that is of course, if you don’t live in an area of isolation. But then, they do still walk for miles in some isolated places of Africa to go to worship every Sunday or any other day they choose.
ttm, I suppose we don’t agree on many things, but you would be more than welcome to be a part of the church I pastor. And I can’t imagine I/we would get in the way of you exercising the gifts and talents our Lord has given you for the benefit of the kingdom. By the way, may I ask what are your gifts and talents, and how did the last church you attended stop you from exercising them? Or did they stop you?
fishon
I attended the “apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer,” last Saturday night–a group of my closest friends, some grilled steaks and a big salad, some good wine…and hours of conversation about how God is revealing himself in amazing ways amidst the various trials of our various lives. No agendas, no splashy graphics, not even any music. But we laughed and cried and worshipped. And God was present. It was “church”, in probably the purest form I’ll encounter in this world.
Well, fishon, the apostles are no longer here to teach, but I can read what they did and learn from their example in Scripture (and I don’t have to be in a church building to do so.) Fellowship is mandatory, yes? I fellowship regulary on the phone, via email, and in person with many Christian friends. Some of that fellowship has occurred by accident in an aisle in Target or without intention in the booth of a local restaurant. And some of that fellowship occurs in a small group Bible study taking place in a women’s community center rented by a church of which I am not, and do not intend to become, a member. Prayer occurs in all those places and more (especially in private which Christ himself seemed to advocate.) I do not need to be in a church building to learn, to fellowship with other believers, to serve, and to pray.
Have I “forsaken the assembling of believers together?” Not really. But I HAVE forsaken an institution which does not allow the other commands in Hebrews 10 to be implemented by believers. That passage tells us to gather together for three reasons: “Let us draw near to God,” “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess,” and “Let us consider how we may spur one another on to love.” I have forsaken churches that wanted me to draw near to formulas and visions. I have forsaken churches that didn’t allow any spurring because they had already planned how “good deeds” should be and would be conducted. I have forsaken churches that hold unswervingly to good works and righteous behavior and commitment pledges and burnout.
The church I last attended was not healthy; it was schizophrenic. I worked with the youth as a mentor in a small discussion group. Many of the young people were begged and hounded to use their gifts and talents for the church. After they started doing that, several of them were invited to become part of a student leadership group. After they went through an application process (which had not been discussed in the beginning and was intimidating) and IF they were “Christian” enough to be accepted, then they were told that the only way they could remain in the group was to join a small Bible study during the week. One of the young people said he wouldn’t join because the study was nothing but an hour of boring worksheets and not effectively meeting its own stated goal of dialogue, connection, and deeper understanding of the things of God. He was told that not only was he disallowed from being part of the leadership group, but he could no longer control the sound boards and computers in in the Middle School services. This was only one reason why he ended up leaving the church (and the faith.) He was fourteen at the time.
I found this unbelievable!! You measure a young person’s commitment to Christ by how much they are willing to do for a church? Then you lock them into feeling part of things of by “gifting” them the label of leader? And then you raise the commitment level again and again until everything they do and say is “what is expected”? It’s nothing but flatout manipulation and brainwashing. I don’t believe that is AT ALL what God intended by a community that serves one another with their gifts and love. That is only one example.
Rules were stated for all and bent by those in the inner circle.
People who had alternative views from the pastors were shadowed and stopped from speaking with other believers.
People who ended up leaving the church and church school were mocked BY NAME in staff meetings.
People were allowed to exercise their spiritual gifts as long as they submitted to the leaders’ “talents” of favoritism, chauvinism, and manipulation.
fishon, I appreciate your invitation to come to a better place, but I get annoyed with your insinuations that there is something wrong with those of us who have left the church-as-institution. Would you tell an abused person to stay in a place getting the snot knocked out of him over and over again until he has no strength left to stand? Please say it isn’t so.
If all of us “quitters” hopped planes to start our own out-of-the-box churches, THEN would you take a good look at what’s left of this dysfunctional American church? What will it take to get church leaders to stop blaming the victims and open their eyes to the ugly truth?
ttm,
“I have forsaken churches that wanted me to draw near to formulas and visions. I have forsaken churches that didn’t allow any spurring because they had already planned how “good deeds” should be and would be conducted. I have forsaken churches that hold unswervingly to good works and righteous behavior and commitment pledges and burnout.”
——I wouldn’t stay in a church like that either.
Aha, the youth. I NEVER beg or hound [youth] anyone to use their gifts and talents. I have absolutely no problem saying no, and when someone tells me no, I have no problem with that. I did smile a little when I though of hounding and Moses and Jonah!
Sounds like the 14 year old was the subject of ministry bullying. Yep, sounds like manipulation to me. But what does that have with you not attending a Church?
“Rules were stated for all and bent by those in the inner circle.
People who had alternative views from the pastors were shadowed and stopped from speaking with other believers. People who ended up leaving the church and church school were mocked BY NAME in staff meetings.”
——What kind of rules? I really am interested.
——If it was you that was shadowed, how can a pastor stop you from speaking to other believers? Now I know that some cults pull the shunning thing, but stop people from talking, how?
—–Mocked by name in a staff meeting! I wouldn’t be part of that staff if it happened a second time after I took issue with it. But what does any of this have with you not attending a Church?
“fishon, I appreciate your invitation to come to a better place….”
—–But ttm, I DID NOT SAY IT WAS A ‘’better place.”
“…but I get annoyed with your insinuations that there is something wrong with those of us who have left the church-as-institution.”
—–Don’t know what I can do about that? I just have an “alternative view” and opinion that differs with you. And since you have discribed your distaste for people “manipulating” people, I am sure you will NOT insist that I change my view JUST to stop annoying you.
“Would you tell an abused person to stay in a place getting the snot knocked out of him over and over again until he has no strength left to stand? Please say it isn’t so.”
—–Ok, it isn’t so. I would tell anyone who was truly being abused, and as you say, “getting the snot knocked out of him…” to get away as fast as you can. But what does that have to do with you not attending a Church?
ttm, if I answered your last 2 questions, I would probably do more than annoye you. Not that I don’t agree that there are ‘dysfunctional’ churches, or that there are some victims, but my solutions, well, you just wouldn’t care for them.
jerry
May I say something. Jerry, I know you mean good. But in my opinion you don’t really know what’s going on in churches, it’s worse than you could ever imagine. I live in Holland and the thing that TTM describes happens over here. I’ve been in a church like that, and let me tell you: it’s horrible! Those churches are like sects. The rules that are to follow are crazy and unbiblical. In my church our best friends were told not to hang out with us anymore cause we influenced them too much. I was told not to see my parents anymore after they left. When I didn’t want to go to a women leadership meeting anymore because of all the gossiping about church people, I was told I couldnt be a leader anymore and so on. So as much as I understand your frustration about us churchleavers, you have to realize that things are bad in church. Other people that left this church, had to go to therapy to get rid of all the bad things they learned also about God.
Most of the youth that left doesn’t attend church anymore, and if they do, they have chosen to live a mediocre life, with a lot of compromises and sin. It’s like a abusive marriage, after years of abuse you decide to divorce, and then you lose faith in true love. So i guess it’s scary to be part of anything that has to do with church, as far as I am concerned.
It’s complicated for me. On one hand I really CRAVE fellowship, more than I have now with friends. I long to be part of a bigger community of jesus lovers, but on the other ha’nd I am so afraid things go wrong again, or that I would feel locked up, or that I would go out of obligation.
So tell me jerry, are we spoiled brats or are we wounded soldiers?
I’m glad you’re writing this stuff David. It’s good to acknowledge you haven’t got it all figured out. I know I certainly haven’t. I think in the acknowledgment we make further room for God to move.
Right now, my wife and I are not attending a local church due to language barriers (we moved to Finland from Canada last year). We’re part of an online “church” that meets via Skype (www.junctionj.com) which we find provides wonderful community and a chance to discuss spirituality. We also subscribe to a number of podcasts, so we get our preaching from a number of sources (which does wonders, I tell you, not being stuck under one ministries ideas of what are the most important values). And we read books, to challenge us and to adjust your perspectives.
I ministered in the same church for thirty years other than a five year attachment to a storefront inner-city work. It sprung out of my “birth” church and I frequently went to visit that home church while attending the other. I taught Sunday school for most of those three decades (all ages), worked in kids camps, children’s church, vacation Bible school, helped with menial labor tasks, ushered, deaconed for two years, and raised three daughters within their sanctuary. Two yet attend there. I regret none of it, but left four years ago to sit in the back pew of another assembly. Once a month a few fellows and I visit a local rescue mission and also a Youth Detention Center. Every so often I return to the old place of worship and, in doing so, remain convinced of my decision to leave.
You’re welcome to diagnose my experience, too, Jerry. I see no reason to air all my baggage that brought me to this place of discontentment with the Church. People are people and I’m one of them. Christ remains, however, the best “thing” that ever happened to me. His witness speaks for itself…
fishon,
By getting defensive about your church and yourself (i.e., “We are probably closer to the type of Church David dreams of…,” “I can’t imagine I/we would get in the way of you exercising the gifts and talents our Lord has given you for the benefit of the kingdom,” “I wouldn’t be part of that staff if it happened a second time after I took issue with it,” etc.) you set yourself up as a better place. So whether you did or didn’t say YOUR church is a better place, your attitude claims it is.
When someone has been abused over and over again by a person, they eventually either fight or run. When you analyze (which you seem to enjoy) the situation, usually you find that the bully is the product of an institution (family, gang, cult, corporation, church) which encourages his or her behavior. There’s a payoff for the bullying and manipulation–a payoff that stops the bully from seeing the victim as a human being.
All I’m saying is that, in general, the modern church has become a bully not very dissimilar to the burly sixth grader who beats up anyone smaller to get their lunch money. Then he can treat himself to a candy bar and a Coke after school. In “church” school, I’m tired of going home with empty pockets and bruises. So I’ve asked the my Daddy if I can be homeschooled. And it may be a shock to you, but He said “Yes!!”
All of your analysis and defense of the church will not help me to believe your position that the institutional church is a helpful and loving big brother. And your continual nitpicking of comments here only strengthens my belief that most (no, NOT all) church leaders are completely in denial about their own participation in institutional bullying.
You are welcome to your beliefs, of course. But I don’t have to keep coming back to your theological pummeling. See, my pockets are empty. If you want the candy bar and Coke, I guess you’ll have to find the fun money somewhere else. I see the jingle in some of the other comments…Good luck.
Linda,
Nice to meet you. Wow, David’s blog is more internation than I realized. That is a good thing.
Linda, I do know what goes on in churches. I was the recepeant of a terrible coup, lead by the pastor and his deacon friends, while I was an elder. You will just have to take my word for it that I was an innocent victim. I was 48 years old, 4-5 weeks from going off to my first year of Bible college, and the pastor [my great friend] tried to destroy me. I know the pain, agony, anger, frustration, the tears, and the pleading with God as to why He allows such things to happen. So I do not speak as a man who has not experienced the evils of Christian brother/sister eating alive another brother/sister.
The church you describe sounds like a church to run from. Sounds very cultic.
Yes, if you were to envolve yourself in another church, you may be hurt again. In fact, probably so. But that is part of life, life even in the church. Why, because people are involved. And ANYWHERE you have people, there will be the manipulator. Yes, you could be hurt again, but if you don’t find the fellowship you CRAVE, you will never experience the biblical joy that God will give you with some of the relationships that could be your’s. For me, I will not let the possiblities of being hurt again rob me from the blessings I receive from the fellowship that I have with other believers. For me, the joy that I have far exceeds the hurt.
“So tell me jerry, are we spoiled brats or are we wounded soldiers?”
—–Linda, I do believe SOME are spoiled brats. Some are weaker brothers/sisters.
—–Some are wounded soldiers. And some of those wounded soldiers REFUSE to let the ‘Great Physician’ heal them. Others go AWOL, and still other become POWs. And of course, we have all read and maybe know a ‘wounded soldier’ who when healed, but still has the scars goes right back into battle. It is no doubt very difficult when you have been wounded by one of your own [Judas], but never-the-less, like Paul said, “I press on….”
jerry [fishon]
Jim,
Don’t have the time nor the need to diagnose your experience. Hey, you are the guy I would wish those who have had issues with their church were like. Your are in the back pew of another church, so I assume you receive some sort of spiritual nourishment or you wouldn’t stay even in the back. And there you go, you and a few fellows are out and about using your gifts and talents. But Jim, you found another church, this discussion is about those who “don’t believe in the church as it is,” never to darken the doors of another, and they eventually stop using their gifts and talents for God. Heck, even one of us wants to leave and become a ‘basket weaver.’
jerry
Oh ttm,
Nothing I say will make you happy. The church I pastor is not a ‘better place,’ but is a safer place than those you are running from. Big difference.
“When someone has been abused over and over again by a person, they eventually either fight or run.”
—–Why in the world would you let the person abuse you over and over again? Believe me, when a woman comes to me and tells me or I can see the bruises of a beating from her husband she loves, I tell her, “Go, find a safe house. Will you go if I can find you one?” I DO NOT tell her to turn the other cheek.
ttm, your last two paragraphs indicate that you have no problem dishing out your opinion and doing a little ‘pummeling’ yourself. Then it sounds as if you run. Kinda hit and run. If my opinions on this blog are in your estimation a “theological pummeling,” then you are very thinned skinned at best.
If you and I just talking and having an disagreement is a “theological pummeling,” then I can see why you will not be attending church. I have no power over you; I haven’t cursed you; I haven’t tried to manipulate you; I haven’t tried to steal your coke and candy money; I haven’t tried to get you kicked out of the blog [church]. We just see things differently, and that is a ‘pummeling?’ If that is pummeling, you just pummel with a gentler tone, I guess.
It sounds like you are done with me. I am sorry about that. But then, maybe some of the things I have been saying is taking affect with you. You will not leave the blog, but you will leave your antagonist. Now that is what I have been saying all along. Don’t give up on the ‘whole’ institution, just on the one[s] who you believe are mistreating you.
your brother in Christ,
jerry [fishon]
The truth is, all my friends, is that when two or three are gathered together in Jesus’ name, not only is Jesus present, but in come the powers. It seems inevitable. I’m wondering how we as people can gather voluntarily in total freedom without agenda or expectation. Is it even possible. And I dare to say, fishon, that this happens in your church too. I do not wish to forsake my friends or this community. I “love the church” like I love McDonalds. However, I love the community made up of the people we call the church so much that I can’t articulate it. But I am afraid that we are still not a manifestation the freedom that in reality is already ours. My passion is to discover that and live it out.
There is no question that the institutional church has problems, and there is no question that it has driven some people away, and there is no question that it will always be like that to some degree because it is run by humans.
I think it is helpful to reflect on that to some degree, in order to strive to have the most authentic relationship with God that we can, BUT I think we can get caught up in it and “stuck” as well.
We can’t let ourselves slip into the trap, and we have to move forward in loving and serving God as best we can in this world. My question would be how are each of you going to move forward at this point? Now that you have identified some of the problems, what will be the next step? It won’t help to identify the problems if we can’t move past them.
NP,
“I’m wondering how we as people can gather voluntarily in total freedom without agenda or expectation. Is it even possible.”
—–No, I do NOT think it is possible. 2 reasons.
Number one: We all have a different idea of what total freedom is. And with that, even you will bring an agenda and expectation of how I should view and act out in total freedom. Example: You have TOTAL freedom to put your art work up on the wall. Do I have the TOTAL freedom to take it down????
Number two: Jesus did not leave His Church on earth with NO agenda or expectations. And He did not leave one ‘flawless’ person in charge. He left many flawed humans to work it out.
Me, I love the church, Christ’s body, I like McDonalds fries.
I don’t know what that “freedom that in reality is already ours,” is that you are looking for in community [church]. I don’t see it in scripture as a picture of the church. If you see Acts 2:44-47 as the picture of this freedom you invision, then you are going to continue to be sorely dissapointed. That did not last very long. Ananias and Sapphira are case in point. As far as I can tell, not one church in the NT mirrors what I think you espire too. The reality is, we don’t live in heaven yet.
The fact is, the church is not a band of hippies looking for NO rules and no responsiblities–and for that matter, no conflict.
Acts 20:29
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
Matthew 7:15
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Paul makes it clear in 2 Cor. 11 that we [Christians/church] need to always be on the alert for him who “masquerades as an angel of light.” If he wasn’t among us there would be no need for a warning, but we receive the warning because he is among us.
If this freedom you are looking for was ours to have, then I don’t believe Paul would have warned us to “put on the armor.” But we need the armor because some of our biggest enemies our amongst us.
David, Paul warns Timothy, “In fact, EVERYONE [caps mine] who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus WILL BE [caps mine] persecuted….” And you have studied the Bible enough to know that we are warned about those from within and among us that will end up being our persecuters.
Jude wanted to write about the salvation he shared with those he was writing, but the issue of ‘certain men” who …slipped in among {them} lead him to change what he intended to write.
I am afraid you search for a utopia that is not promised us while we dwell upon this earth.
I personally think none of us can do better than what the apostle Paul found: “…for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances.” And in two verse later, he tell us how to come to that contentment.
Contentment does not equal the freedom you are looking for, but it can keep you sane in the prison you seem to find yourself in.
jerry
NO FISHON! I refuse to accept your abdication of the total liberty of humanity and of every human being! I will not surrender.
I’m one of the most anti-church people you’ll find but I have to wonder if there is a point where the imperfection of humanity should cease as the scapegoat for bad church. Don’t get me wrong, I believe that this is true but the question is whether this is something that should cease our coming together.
Again, this is coming from a guy that hasn’t done much more than visit various churches over the past 7 or 8 years and coming away with that “missing” feeling as well. Perhaps, in my case, the missing thing is trust and commitment.
I don’t trust anyone. And that is an almost literal statement. I can count the number of people I trust on 6 fingers. They are few and far between. And, to be honest, if I tried to engage with more people I may would trust them more — then the laziness enters. I don’t want to commit to more people. That means I have to dress to impress, fix food, and clean the house to ensure that they are welcome and feel comfortable at my place of abode. I don’t have the energy, the time, and, even worse, the desire to do so.
I can point inwardly as to the problem. It is possible, and is likely true, that the problem began as a result of pain and suffering at the hands of members of the beloved church — but, in the end, does this excuse my own inability to trust? An inability that I’m capable of overcoming?
This isn’t a slam to those who find themselves “homeschooled” (I love that by the way). I just find myself as one of those people who don’t fit in anywhere. I’m to churchy for “the world” and too “wordly” for the church. I don’t hold to creeds or theologies (though I do have a theology — it just doesn’t take the place of God in my life). I don’t abide by the rules and regulations set forth by entities — any of them. So I find myself tossed to and fro — not by the winds of doctrine — but by the rejection of those I consider Christians because I don’t fit in their box.
I long and desire for a community that I belong to — and sadly, I don’t know if I can do it anymore. I miss relationships and hugs (yes, I’m a guy and I miss hugs) and interaction and friends. But, to be honest, I don’t know that I miss them enough to step out in faith, in God or man, to change it.
Nate: This is well said. We long to be free and in relationship at the same time. Independent as well as in community. It is natural and good to gather. My question is how can we do this without the loss of freedom. After all, Paul wrote to the Galatian COMMUNITY that where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. Press into this question. It is important.
Dave: I honestly don’t know. I’ve gotten to a point that I don’t think it’s possible. And if it is, I’m sure it will be too good to be true. I’m at a point that I trust my children to speak life and spirituality into my life more than another Christian. I’m more enthused with my family than I am with church. With gathering. I know I should reach out and trust but there is something that shuts down when requirements are placed on it. And any structure has requirements.
Man — I don’t know. I wish it were easy and that I could stop thinking about it all the time and that I could trust people. But it isn’t. I can’t. And I don’t. And I think that I’m missing out on great blessings because of it. In order to trust one has to flex that muscle to work it out — and I’m just a fat, lazy guy who would rather watch my boy and girl play sports than to have to change my life to gather with a bunch of people, who are friendly enough, but that I have to spend time with and feel the need to change to do so.
I visited a church a few months back — I liked it. A lot. It was a “perfect” church. Yet, I felt lost there. I had a hard time committing. So, my problem is me… and the worse thing is that I don’t want to change enough to do so.
How are you defining freedom? The way I understand it, the freedom of Christ is being set free from the bondage of sin. (Psalm 119 verses 44 and 45: “So shall I keep Your law continually, forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty, for I seek Your precepts.”) You are free now. No people or rules of this world have more power over you than you allow them to have. I am not sure I understand why you would think that gathering as believers will necessarily mean a loss of your freedom in Christ.
Abundant: I’m not sure if you’re speaking to me BUT I do believe I have the freedom of Christ. Though people believe that said freedom only comes through specific rules, regulations, and structures — all others are a cheap imitation. I DON’T believe this but enough people do.
There is so much baggage that comes along with church in that people who have had any contact with it come away realizing the rules go along with the structure. The problem isn’t that people aren’t free in Christ — rather that structures, entities, and committee’s have already designated themselves as the distributors of said freedom.
I ceased allowing people or rules of this world (including religious structures and committees) to have power over me — in doing so, I find myself tenuously living on an island that is located within, not a body of water, but a mass of land. I’ve learned that should you actually begin to stand on your own two feet and vocalizing that which you believe about the structure (or disbelieve) — you’ll be rejected and held at arms length.
People speak, often enough, about embracing all — but often there is stipulation on that. “We’ll embrace you as long as you do XYZ, ABC, MNO… otherwise you’ll be held in suspicion and without community.”
In the church culture today — the problem is that the freedom in Christ is bound up and wrapped up in the idea that it only happens within a certain structure. Therefore the idea that is purveyed (whether implicitly or explicitly) is that freedom in Christ only happens with stipulation found within the structure.
Is freedom the latest idol? If self-actualization our new god? I read all of this and it makes me sick! Jesus didn’t die for this! Our bickering and bitching. Jesus prayed we would become one and love each so that the world would know that God sent him. I am physically shaking because all of this makes me wonder if He was just a lunatic.
Hi, Nate. I wasn’t necessarily addressing that to you, but I appreciate your response. I am truly happy to hear that you do feel you have freedom in Christ. I hope you will find a way to gather, support and love within a group that doesn’t make you feel hesitant to express your true beliefs and thoughts.
Abundant Blessings: Thanks. And, for the record, I, too, hope to find that group as well. Sometimes, I believe that I have — except it is found within community here online. Other times, I know I need face to face.
I’m calmer now. Here is what I think produces such a physical reaction to what feels like me to be church bashing. I had a dream a couple of weeks ago. In it I thanked my mother for taking me to the Baptist church when I was a child and then I pleaded with her to do something about my youngest daughter (as if it were her responsibility) because she was being brought up “unchurched” That was the word I used, unchurched. Do you ever have an experience where a word or phrase jumps out at you in big bold letters? UNCHURCHED
That is what is happening to us and our children. We are becoming unchurched and I feel an almost panic at the thought. My 13 year old said that from her perspective church is “nothing but a pain” and I am greived by this. She was a baby when the church we had invested in spiritually and emotionally split and all these years later the repercussions still verberate loudly. I am like Nate. I don’t trust anymore because everyone seems to have an agenda, most of the time hidden.
It seems like the big agenda now is not to have an agenda. To be free to do whatever you want, when you want. But how does any group of people survive as a group if there is not a working together, a cohesiveness and, yes, even compromise. Oh no, not compromise!! You mean that I may have to sacrifice something for the good of the whole? Sorry for the sarcasm (and sounding like Spock).
I work as a teacher assistant and this year at every Personal Development day we have discussed “Professional Learning Community” and how to implement it. The goal is that everyone work together for the good of the children. Do you know what we have gotten done. Nothing. Not one thing. Because for all the good ideas there are naysayers. But even more important there is no one to say, “Yes, let’s do that.” Our principal has been out most of the year because her husband is dying and no one will take the responsibility for making the changes. Who will suffer for this? The children who are at greatest risk of falling through the cracks. The littlest, weakest ones who have no one to champion them.
What is church all about? Fellowship? Yes. Worship. Yes. But we don’t just come together for ourselves, do we? To me, my daughter feels like one of the little ones who may fall through the cracks because hard as I try on my own I cannot solely teach her about the love of Christ. I need a community who works together in love and, yes, in sacrifice, to show her what He is all about. My heart aches that I can’t find such a place. I don’t know what to do.
NO FISHON! I refuse to accept your abdication of the total liberty of humanity and of every human being! I will not surrender.
——In the spirit of Christian liberty, “Ok.”
jerry
Fishon does make a good point about contentment - that we should be able to handle whatever situation we find ourselves in - and be content because we actually are.
I just attended my old church (from 7 years back) and I am quite content being who I am there - I admit I have my questions and what not about the actual meaning of what they are doing - but I am content with just ‘being’. Some of those people are friends of mine and as much as we are different places these days - I am confident enough in my faith to allow the differences.
That being said, having issues with the way church is run is practically normal - even according to Fishon - we are all different people with different perspectives - so church will have that spice of life.
The problem must of us know first hand is changing the structure to something more fitting the human experience - not so systematic and machine like. I think that is what we are craving in the church experience - and maybe that is on us to make those changes. Now whether most pastors listen or not - well - only time will tell.
I actually don’t hate church or nothing - it’s just a down-right disappointment. And although ‘I learned from being burned’ I do not hold it against the community of people that gather (that much I am aware of) - it’s in the hands of the leaders pushing the system on us to re-evaluate ‘what does church mean?’. That’s the real question we all are getting at the heart of.
I am not sure ‘what the meaning of church’ is - but I like the community focus - caring for one another and developing stronger bonds as part of the communal meetings. I still see church as an organization that can do a lot of real good in whichever city it’s located in - from Myanmar, Morocco, to Regina.
But the church needs to awake and realize this also - we are all ‘one’ in this faith - and if we acted and treated people like that - we’d have a great place to be situated in. We need to remove the focus off living for the structure onto developing the relationship with one another - and how this forces our focus onto God. Think of one thing your former church (or church at present) can do for their community inside and outside the church? Then see to it - that the idea is not lost for lack of trying.
SocietyVs,
Nice post. I like what you say and how you have said it. Particularly I enjoy the: “We need to remove the focus off living for the structure onto developing the relationship with one another - and how this forces our focus onto God.”
—-I totally agree with that. However, it will always be an ongoing struggle as long as man is involved in the church. And the church is made up on mankind, so the battle rages.
fishon
[…] On a slightly lighter note, post of the day to Naked Pastor for Flee to the Desert, because I thoroughly identify. […]
Any fresh expression of church runs the risk of becoming an institution in its turn and then we start all over again.
there’s a lot being said here.. i think we can break it down though.. like this:
the one argument is “I don’t like the church, it doesn’t fit me”
i disagree as the church isn’t about YOU it’s about US. the community, people who wouldn’t normally get together. Jesus never said that we’d have to agree on every little thing, he said we have to LOVE one another and that’s much harder.
another argument is “The fact is, the church is not a band of hippies looking for NO rules and no responsiblities–and for that matter, no conflict.” you better CONFORM or get OUT.
I don’t agree with this either as there is room for self expression in God’s kingdom. God made each of us unique and has given us gifts… we should use them to God’s glory. we tend to get into trouble when we use these gifts to glorify SELF. Ego is not a new god, it has always been a competeing idol.
so how then do we know who’s in or who’s out? there’s a curious verse of JOHN 10:4-16 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father. And I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.”
let’s look at what Jesus is and is not saying. He refers to other adherents of other faiths (other sheep…) who ALREADY belong to him (I have…) and therefore when he calls them they will listen. Jesus isn’t calling for these sheep to change shepherds, he is trying to get us to recognize that the human family is one flock, with one shepherd. What he is NOT saying is “different strokes for different folks” nor is he saying “anyone can worship the god of one’s choice, it’s all good, no matter what.” Which faiths? They aren’t identified. We may surmise that faiths that truly follow the ONE Shephred actively promote the love of God, neighbor, and self as Jesus did. Jesus also states that people shouldn’t worry about what path others are on. He demonstrates time and time again throughout the Gospels for his disciples to concentrate on walking their own path and offering hospitality to those they meet on along the way… the Good Samaritan parable is the core here. Who is my neighbor? EVERYONE!
so like NP said, it’s a hard line to tow with choice and relationship. some choices will hurt others inadvertantly. some distances are too big to overcome. however that shouldn’t keep us from dialogue and community. i might not agree with Joel Osteen or Pat Robertson, but they’re my brothers in Christ and i have to keep in dialogue with them.
“We need to remove the focus off living for the structure onto developing the relationship with one another - and how this forces our focus onto God. Think of one thing your former church (or church at present) can do for their community inside and outside the church? Then see to it - that the idea is not lost for lack of trying. ” SVS
awesome.. i’m getting this tattooed on my body… brilliant.
Can I just say that I stumbled upon this blog about two days ago and I am just blown away by this. Talk about dialogue and communition! And even people from differnt countries!
Thank you all.
God bless you all.
I a misanthrope. But I try to love humans, and all, simply because that’s what my Lord has commanded me to do. So, is that considered an agenda?
I see no reason for humans to come together just for sake of nothing, or just to fellowship, or just to hang out with absolute no reason at all. I see that as a celebration of humanity, and I am wary whenever people do that. It reminds me of the tower of Babel.
When you say “agenda,” do you mean selfish reasons, like trying to get something out of the other person, or trying to mould them to be who we want them to be? Else, is it accurate for me to say that you do not believe there is such thing as a good agenda?
Makes me wonder why you’re a pastor, if every single agendum is bad.
And it’s funny seeing how people write their comments.
Most insist for people to come back to the original meaning of Church, that is ekklesia; an assembly of people, a group of people. (in our context, Christians) But they kept using statements like, “I go to church,” or “I attend church.” You guys are making me confused. Can you please make up your mind, whether the church is the congregation, or the building/event. Don’t say one thing and do another. And if you do that, we have a word for that, and it starts with the letter ‘H.’
From reading people’s experience in their congregation, I seriously am interested to visit them. Cos they make the leaders sounds like they’re a bunch of bloodsucking humans, always bent to make people’s life a misery. Sounds like false prophets and corrupted priests to me. Why aren’t they kicked out yet?
And at the risk of being called a hypocrite, I shall say this, that “the Church maybe a whore, (or in an institute - pun intended) but She’s my mother.”
I’ve been struggling with this issue for so long. It was great to hear someone put it into words. I love the universal church, the body of believers, how can I not… but the way “church” is done… almost like an evangelical subculture that sometimes causes a lot of damage… yet I don’t know another way to achieve communion without being part of some program, structure or burocracy… =(
Awesome post. You should write articles for us too…
[…] One issue that came up again and again was what we could call the risks of turning away from churchgoing. Does a lack of Christian community mean we risk our faith becoming too personal and individualised, does it mean we lose a sense of accountability, does the danger even go so far as to imperil the foundations of our faith? It’s a tension at work in the NakedPastor’s post, Flee to the Desert (HT to Linz for the link) “…When, oh when, will we ever ever realize that all we are doing with all of our ideas, visions, agendas, revolutions and reforms is tweaking that which imprisons us? We are the captains of modification… […]