My Vision is to Have No Vision: Part 2
I had no idea yesterday’s post would stir up so much controversy. And even though this blog is a place for me to express my personal opinion, I have to admit that I do believe that this view of “vision” would be best for all. It was Bonhoeffer, not the nakedpastor, who said that “God hates visionary dreaming”! Why? Because it hates and destroys the community that already exits as it is. He said, “When the morning mists of dreams vanish, then dawns the bright day of… fellowship.” He continues:
Innumerable times a whole Christian community has broken down because it has sprung from a wish dream. The serious Christian, set down for the first time in a Christian community, is likely to bring with him a very definite idea of what Christian life together should be and try to realize it. But God’s grace speedily shatters such dreams. Just as surely as God desires to lead us to a knowledge of genuine Christian fellowship, so surely must we be overwhelmed be a great disillusionment with others, with Christians in general, and, if we are fortunate, with ourselves.
And again:
Every human wish dream that is injected into the Christian community is a hindrance to genuine community and must be banished if genuine community is to survive. He who loves his dream of a community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.
When will we learn? It is time for huge and universal change. I’m not just tired of vision and mission and goals. I’ve come to conclude that universally for the church these are deadly to what is and an affront to grace! The non-Christian philosopher Krishnamurti said,
The feeling that one must BE something is the beginning of deception, and, of course, this idealistic attitude leads to various forms of hypocrisy.
Time to stop dreaming and get down to who we are. That is enough. We’ve been practicing this, and if you need to know… it does work! But even saying that is a defiling of it. As Luther once said, “Put two lovers in a bedroom together… you won’t have to tell them what to do!” I wonder if all our strategies, mission statements, vision-casting, and goal-setting are a psycho-sexual avoidance of truth and reality.
The fine art photograph is the ingenious creation of my friend Mark Hemmings.
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Thanks for “casting the vision” of a visionless church! *GRIN* You definitely have me thinking on this whole issue, for which I am appriciative of! I’m still not comfortable with the idea that the Church as a whole must abandon the whole vision concept/lingo/process. Again, as I stated last night, (around the 50ish reply!) I think it points back to the heart of the visionary: Do they possess a heart after God’s own heart?
Blessings! Brian Francis Hume
There are a whole lot of variables in there. Where do you draw the line between visions, dreams, goals and wishes on the one hand and control, manipulation and disillusionment on the other?
There was once a guy who said “I have a dream …”
The rest is history (and history is still unfolding).
BTW, I love your double irony.
First of all in your title “My vision is to have no vision”. A wonderful and provocative way of stating your view that relationship and being yourself is the whole story (if I have understood your point).
And then the photograph above - I love it, but that’s not what vision means to me.
Brian: Thanks for your comment. And I do remember your comment from yesterday’s post. Who will know whether the visionary has a heart after God? Not even the visionary can know. But do not impose a vision upon the people. That’s my point. You’ll be amazed at what freedom that is and what liberty is made manifest in the fellowship.
the freedom not to impose vision on the people is HUGE.
I also like how you’ve brought it down to how a vision insults what is.
Oswald Chambers talked about seeing the means as an end unto itself - how so often we insult the present by looking so firmly to the future and we miss the beauty of what is.
I like looking at it that way.
Okay, in Part 3 I hope you’re expand on this: “I wonder if all our strategies, mission statements, vision-casting, and goal-setting are a psycho-sexual avoidance of truth and reality.” That one made me gasp out loud - LOVE IT!
When I started homeschooling 9 years ago…I was shocked by the homeschooling group that I attended. It was very formal, extremely religious, and I felt you had to act a certain way and homeschool a certain way or else you didn’t fit….and I did not fit!
So, I along with my friend Heidi, started our own homeschool group. My vision was to have an informal group, relaxed, religion was not an issue but homeschooling was…though the “how” didn’t matter. We really believed in the “come as you are” philosophy and we absolutely avoided leaders, sub-groups, etc…
In reality, a lot of the manual work fell to me. It takes effort to create the relaxed meetings and activities I sought, and over time, we came to realize that even though we were extremely relaxed many others were not. Our vision was not their vision…though we didn’t believe it to be a vision of sorts…more so a common ground that we met on.
But, we watched the dynamics of our little group change as new people arrived. People wanted structure, some wanted hand holding, others wanted things that we didn’t want or need and often felt was dangerous.
Ultimately we walked away and it was such a relief. I’m not sure I believe that people are able to grasp fully the freedom of just being together in Christ…no strings attached, no programs, no long term goals other than right now! I do not however, think that the structured side is wrong…just different….wrong for me…but right for others.
It takes work to create an environment of freedom. It takes strength and wisdom that in hindsight I did not have, not to mention, it was also one of my darkest years, so leaving was the best option. I wanted my little group to stay this nice relaxed happy place where we could discuss the latest, greatest books or teaching philosophy…but others wanted/needed something different. I didn’t have the energy or time to invest and I continue to be a bit ambivalent on how the whole thing played out….though, I don’t miss the group at all.
So, I guess my point to all this is….be prepared for some resistance. I believe fully in your “non-vision” but for those who need some hand holding as they find their feet…that will take some effort and compassion on your part and the part of those who “get” where your trying to lead us too.
Damn! That’s an eye-opener.
I just realized that I’m so busy preparing for tomorrows success that I’ve totally missed today.
I guess that’s why Jesus prayed for our “daily” bread. We shouldn’t be looking to God much farther than that…
right on senor!
Wendy,
I’m also a homeschooler, and your thoughts resonate with me. I’ve always struggled to fit into the “structured” organizations. We were part of a particular support group for about seven years and then went to an even more structured enrichment group(Its purpose demanded structure.) and now are on the fringe of another group. Basically, we are only a part of that group so that we can participate in the end of year testing.
I remember every September when we got together for the first meeting of the year at a local park. There was such a buzz in the air…people talking about who would do what…who would be in charge of this program…who would organize the field trips…who knew someone that could come and speak to the kids about various issues…who would be in charge of the growing library? And there was the always present bulletin board to sign up for this and for that and so on and so forth.
I’m really an organized person and LOVE to organize; but even I felt that this obsession with positions and programs and purposes and events was just too much. And I remember saying MANY times…why can’t we just get together and hang out? Why do the kids need more structure? I don’t care if we go on a field trip or hear the K-9 guy speak about drug sniffing dogs again. Why can’t we just be what we are: a bunch of homeschoolers who want to hang out and do life hoping at least a few of the truths we hold will rub off on our kids?
Nobody understood. I learned to ward off the guilt they tried to impose on my non-participation in ancillary events. I learned that it’s okay to have a “non-vision vision.” Thanks for reminding me of that today with your comment.
I’ve only managed to catch up on half of the comment so forgive me if this is repeating what’s been said. I love this perspective and totally agree that I want the church I pastor to not have a vision.. for itself as a church… but I do, along with the prophets down the ages, want to live and work towards a “vision” of a transformed world
Whoa, David…I can’t wait to see all the comments roll in when you elaborate on the “psycho-sexual avoidance of truth and reality”…you won’t even need to make it a contest!
“‘God hates visionary dreaming’! Why? Because it hates and destroys the community that already exits as it is.”
“It is time for huge and universal change.”
Whoa! How do you reconcile those two statements?
Vision-setting always implies that the current method or form of worship, action, prayer is not good enough, and that somehow there is always a “better” way to follow God.
That is not to say that Churches have to be very traditionalist.
But, how many denominations, churches, movements have been started simply as a way for someone to do it “their” way…which of course is sooooo much better than the “other” way?
The point is that there is nothing more disillusioning than following a “vision” that really isn’t from God. It is destined to fail and take a lot of people down with it.
No one ever travels so high as he who knows not where he is going.
~Cromwell
“I had no idea yesterday’s post would stir up so much controversy.”
No? You thought people would sit quietly and do nothing when you said stuff like:
“To set goals for my family is demonic.”
I mean, I love statements like that, because it starts the conversation, but you shouldn’t be surprised. That sentence above requires some serious context, and without enough context is sounds an awful lot like fighting words.
I would suggest that perhaps it isn’t vision itself which is hurtful, but the division of the church into the “vision” people and the “make my vision come true” people. The practice of using vision as a way of maintaining power or control, I’d sign the petition to declare that demonic. “psycho-sexual avoidance of truth and reality” — lovely.
And the thing most people think of when they hear “without vision, people perish” is probably closer to that demonic thing than what I am thinking about when I think of vision.
But we are still living in the real world, where sometimes you need to make short term sacrifices of one value to reach long term goals in some other value. Where there are things larger than one person which are worth doing.
Our dominance theory of truth always wants one thing to win over the other. So if a solitary local unstructured approach is good, then the planned and institutional must be evil.
I would suggest that we live in a world full of tension. It is only we we look each other in the eyes and say our ridiculous dreams, that we hear how those dreams impact others and begin to really understand the costs behind the dreams.
So I am voting, even after reading both posts, FOR vision. Maybe we are in a Vizzini/Inigo moment about “Vision”. Maybe I keep using that word and you will tell me it doesn’t mean what I think it does.
Not all who wander are lost. - Tolkien
Sometimes you know where you are going, sometimes you don’t. Inevitably, the journey turns out differently than you anticipated, no matter how much you envision or plan the outcome. Nevertheless, there are some things that I believe we should be deliberate about, that we actively pursue.
For me, they are: loving those around me, becoming more myself, listening more to God than any other voice, being a friend, not jumping to conclusions, becoming less of a critical, negative or judgemental person, and always being a learner.
If you can’t get past some of the strong words and images, unbridled conviction and seemingly irreverent writing style (hyperbole is just a writing tool, remember) to hear the heart of Dave’s post, you are truly missing an important message.
Vision is just a word. Get a life (and I mean that literally).
Dave….i give you two months before you switch to another philosophy of ministry and “church community”.
Dave - I don’t have a vision for the ministry - God does and He allows me to be a part of it!!
matte–I don’t disagree. I’ve been in that place in my life where I had no direction, no vision. I didn’t understand where God was leading me, but I knew that he was.
But while I was in that time I wasn’t slamming people who had clear vision, denouncing it as “binding” or “demonic.”
matte - love what you said!!!!
Fred, I find it amusing that you are accusing a person (David) who has stories of getting clear direction from God in various times in his life, of denouncing clear vision. What does that have to do with vision casting, vision statements, and the like. I think we’re talking about two totally different things.
John…….ouch! I hope David has thick skin. On the other hand, there are things I felt strongly about last fall that I’m not so sure about now. God forbid there be room for changing your mind about something. Why that would be acknowledging your own humanity!
I’ve been thinking this way for a little while. Vision can get in the way of God, and a church having a Vision that all the members must strive toward is just ridiculous. God has so many plans for each individual person, and they can’t all fit neatly into pastor-sanctioned programs that fit into the “vision”, “mission” and “culture” of the church.
Like Michael Frost says, there is no commandment to march over the hill following a pastor’s vision. None at all. Without vision people do perish - the vision of the kingdom of God, not the vision of the pastor, the church, the denomination or the oversight committee.
Long live the visionless vision!
heidi……good spiritual ace
David….what we need is a good pipe…a 2 litre of bottle of good chilian wine… a conversation in private. I hearby sign off the bolg. Don’t want to stir too much controversy in this form.
i was thinking the same thing. tried to call you today.
blimey… i’ve only been away for 36 hours!… it’s gone bananas round here!
when i say ‘blimey’, i of course do not literally mean ‘blind me!’… thus ridding myself of the only vision worth having! i simply mean ‘blimey’!
seems that some people with vision are quite aggressive if this conversation’s anything to go by… not sure that’s the best of adverts for vision… it also seems that those who don’t have vision are passionate, which i would have thought is a good advert for no vision… these are just 2 observations.
my own view is that vision is a great way of measuring success and failure… eg. i fell short of what i dreamt, therefore i’m a failure… or, i exceeded the dream, therefore i’m a success… this is great if that’s the way you want to live your life… i don’t… too many relationships to have, people to love, mundane tasks to complete, work to do, issues to resolve, prayers to say, meals to eat… and too many dreamless nights sleep to enjoy.
thanks everyone for the discussion… very good stuff mrnudievicarsir!
jon birch,
There’s a huge difference between being passionate and aggressive about “having vision” and being passionate and aggressive about “my vision.” If God gives me vision, it’s not about me to pressure other people to get on board. Certainly that would be a problem.
Jon Birch “very good stuff mrnudievicarsir!”
my sides hurt. good one!!! lmao
I got the link to this posting from a dear friend and brother of mine.
I believe God has given to all of us a vision. There is indeed something that all of us must be looking forward to. This most of the time will not be mentioned in the next church program and will not be found in the next church board or “business” meeting. It will however be found in the Bible. If i could put it in a word, the vision I see in the Bible is “heaven” or better “heavenly”. It is the heavenly city God has prepared for us and which we seek, looking forward to it, (Hebrews 13:14), it is Jesus the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:1-2), it is the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:12-14). Most of the time we will not find these as the vision put forward to us from “church” or similar institutions. In this sense we do not have their vision. You do not have it and I do not have it either, at least at the place I’m now. The pastor has it and it is fine with me.. but I don’t have it and this is fine too! But who could deny that all of us that are Christians run or should run the race LOOKING UNTO (having as vision) Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, seeking the city, looking for the city to come, the New Jerusalem, and pressing towards the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus? This is my vision and should be my vision, in case I do not have it or forget it. Also it is my vision to fight the good fight of faith (I timothy 6:12), to finish my course (II Timothy 4:7), to do what God has called me to do (I Peter 4:10-11) and be fruitful for Him (John 15:1-16).
Some months ago I had written an article in my magazine called “What is your vision?”. You can find it here:
http://www.jba.gr/Articles/jbanov06.htm
It focuses mostly on the vision of the heavenly city. Abraham had this as vision and it is also a vision, something to look forward, for us too.
In about an hour i will also publish the latest article of my magazine which is called “Fruit: what a Christian life is all about”. It will be found here:
http://www.jba.gr/Articles/jbaaprmay07a.htm
I believe it is also relevant to the topic
God bless you all
Tassos
making jesus your focus is less a vision and more an action.
no one would disagree that we should love one another… no need for a vision, just do it.
feed the poor… clothe the naked (except nudierev of course, because he’s proud to be in the buff!)… stand up for the oppressed… eat chocolate… these are all basics, no need for vision, just get on with it.
fruit doesn’t grow through vision… babies don’t get made because of vision… formula1 races don’t get won because of vision, it’s hard, hard work!
vision kills imagination… and you only have to see what our respective countries have done in iraq to see the evil that happens when people are subserviant to a vision.
setting goals for your family is demonic in any context i can think of.
encouraging children in their academic, social, sporting pursuits doesn’t require any vision at all… very daft, unimaginitive, even bad people can can achieve these things. just through love, kindness, self sacrifice and other tangible things like that.
there is a diifference between the father who encourages his son in his soccer pursuits and the father who lives his dreams through his sons pursuits… the latter is a great example of how visionaries behave.
jon birch,
How about the family goal of getting out of debt. Demonic? How about the goal of serving the community. Demonic?
Assumptions about what goals for family might be lead to generalizations.
radical and personal transformation. all that other stuff will follow.
Wow, I just came across these posts today and read through all the comments. A couple times I found myself near tears…
…because the idea that vision destroys the present and keeps us from just being ourselves is powerful to me right now. Forgive me for looking at this in a way that has nothing to do with church (though I resonate with that part of the conversation too) -
I got married a little over eight months ago. Every girl dreams about her wedding, right? So I had a “vision”. I pursued that vision (well, as much as I could within my financial situation.) I fought hard to plan a wedding that I would not regret for the rest of my life (I had the example of many friends who regretted their weddings.)
Our wedding was magical. Mystical. Beautiful. In so many ways, even better than what I hoped for…
…and in other ways, it didn’t line up to “the vision.” Things got forgotten and then improvised. I didn’t like all of the pictures. I have regrets, and feel almost guilty for having regrets because many of our guests told us it was the most amazing wedding they’d ever been to. My regrets stem mostly from my “vision” - visions are by definition perfect and thus, unattainable.
Since getting married, life hasn’t turned out quite according to “vision” either. I got sick and physically collapsed after the wedding. My adrenal glands are fried and my thyroid isn’t keeping up with the work. My body is in limbo and I spend most days doing nothing as I try to rest enough to heal. This isn’t what I had in mind. This isn’t the “vision” I had of my life during my 20’s - the decade when you’re supposed to be a little neurotic as you chase down your “visions” and dreams. Instead I’m like a little ol’ lady, camped out at home, with nothing left except -
to be.
Simply to be. I’m being forced to be myself, to live from who I am, to engage with the present moment because it’s all I have. I don’t have a vision anymore. I can’t. It’s been stripped. Every time I even begin to think of a new vision - I’ll get healthy this year, I’ll lose weight this year, in three years we’ll be debt-free, then we can………… - my throat starts constricting and my body starts exhibiting adrenal symptoms.
So I really identified with Dave when he said that vision kills what is - it murders life.
This is exactly what I have found, despite the fact that, personality-wise, I am a dreamer. I am an idealist. I am a visionary.
I am an idealist-dreamer-visionary who is being forced into the present moment by Someone greater than myself who is telling me that all I ever wanted, is here. All I am, is here. I don’t need to strive anymore, I don’t need to achieve any more visions, I can just be, and love, and live.
That’s not a vision….that’s a life.
Thank you, Dave. Your words are going to have a profound impact on the way I look at this unsought-for time in my life.
blessings,
Heidi Lou
Can radical and personal transformation be a goal for your kids? If so, how would you attempt to “make that happen”?
For my kids we have a long-term goal of doing a 2 1/2 month missions trip in a couple of years with the preliminary steps of a short-term (10 day) mission trip this summer to the Caribbean and an even more preliminary step of inner city work sometime in the next few weekends. Those are my goals for my boys–age 8 and 9 right now.
Tell me how that’s demonic!
Good point Fred!
@Fred:
Assuming your boys are happy to cooperate from the heart, your plans sound great. And it would be wonderful if they go on to develop their own heart ministry in the light of such experiences later on. And if they see some of the fruit of the ministry at this early age, that could be a marvellous foundation for their later ministry.
However, parents mapping out goals and activities for their kids COULD be manipulative and thus counterproductive. SOME kids of missionaries and pastors have a hard time finding their own identity and coming to terms with their family of origin. For others, these things are a wonderful blessing and a springboard to later adventures.
Demonic or divine? I don’t know. There is no global answer one way or the other.
The vision is personal. To you and to each of your boys individually.
Have a great time on your mission trips! And I hope that your kids have a wonderful time, too!
This is really interesting stuff, and I wanted to mull it all over for a while before I added my thoughts. And I apologize in advance for how long this will be.
I decided to make a list of some ways I think this thing we’re calling “vision” can be dangerous:
1. It encourages people to live for tomorrow and not for today. It’s easy to get swept up in how you picture the future and neglect the present… and it’s also easy to get frustrated and dissatisfied when that future doesn’t come to pass soon enough, or at all.
2. It can lead to self-reliance instead of dependence on God. I think it’s clear in the Bible that God often gave people a “mission” – leave your home (Abraham), lead these people out of Egypt (Moses), go claim the Promised Land (Joshua), go and make disciples (Jesus to his followers), etc. – but he rarely revealed all the steps along the journey at once. Why? So people would rely on him all the way. When we come up with grand plans that we call vision, sometimes we stop trusting God and start trusting our own blueprints.
3. It can be an easy way out of the hard work of community. How many of us have heard people leave churches because “it just didn’t fit my calling.” What these people usually mean is, “this church isn’t doing the things I want them to do, or they’re not being nice enough to me, so I’m going to go find that perfect church that will cater to all my needs and wants.” These people are usually convinced that they know God’s “vision” for the church better than anyone, and they usually switch churches every six months or so.
4. It can cause leaders to see people as a means to an end. I have to confess that I’ve done this, and it’s awful. When you have a vision or a plan, you devote yourself to the people who are “on board” and pay more attention to them than everyone else. You care about them, of course, but more in terms of how they’re helping you accomplish your goals rather than how they’re really doing. Some “visionary” leaders are often terrible shepherds of their flock, because they care more about the end result then they do the journey, and the people who get helped or hurt along the way.
All that said, I think there are two aspects of what we often label vision that are worth keeping. The first is that every church, and everybody is “about” something, whether they lay it out in a mission statement or five-point plan or not. Hopefully we’re all about loving Jesus and doing the things he told us to do – as Jon Birch pointed out above, you don’t need to fast and pray or draft a five-year blueprint about feeding the hungry or standing up for justice; those should be a given. To (very) roughly paraphrase Erwin McManus, we need to move away from “where are we going” to “who are we becoming.” My vision is the ‘radical and personal transformation’ Dave mentioned – to be more like Jesus. Maybe it helps to set goals along the way, like praying more often or making a point to serve others, but the goals aren’t the end – Jesus is.
And secondly, I think everyone who follows Jesus has to be forward-looking in the sense that we all believe he can change us, and that one day we’ll be with him. I’d call this hope, “the certainty of things not seen.” I have vision in the sense that I believe Jesus can help me run this race, even though I don’t know where the course goes.
Divine I say Fred…Divine!
It is a good goal for a parent to create opportunities of experience for our kids. Does it require a plan, budget, vision? Yes! The results are left for the kid to filter. It would be wrong to make our kids be something that “we” want. But, my goodness, why is that a bad “demonic” thing to have vision in your home…
Heidi Lou, I was really touched by your comments. I pray that you will feel loved and supported while you heal. Its tough to be in a place where all seems stripped away. But if to be or not to be is the choice, oh what life there is in just being.
Hey Dave,
I liked these posts, I think you are pushing the envelope a bit for some folks. I have mixed feelings about vision casting. I think there is a lot of corporate culture that isn’t helpful for the Church, the verdict is still out on if it is consistantly harmful. I think there is capacity in vision casting for both good and ill - like most things. When it becomes the ideological norm then I’m completely with you - get me the hell away from anything that asserts itself over the knowledge of Christ. But that isn’t the case everywhere and vision, can be used in a way that is quite healthy.
I am convinced, blame Ahren Summach for this one, that there are two distinct styles of church leadership. There are those that fit naturally into the management styles that are popularized in the world. My good friend George Esser (River City Vineyard) is one like that and his church is amazing. But it would kill me to pastor the way he does. From what I’ve seen of George’s philosophy vision isn’t a parameter to restrict, but a tool to be used and he does well with it. It helps him orient the congregation and accomplish great things.
I’m the other type of leadership. Ahren calls it the parish priest style. I suspect we are akin on this Dave. I love the interrelatedness and just being together that is my church. We aren’t trying to build anything huge, just be who we are and encourage each other to be the best we’s we can be in Christ. Yeah we have used a few slogans to help, but mostly it is a laid back living of life together. I’m not convinced it is the best model for building a big church, but I really don’t care about building a big church anyway. I want to be faithful with what and who God has given me. And yes, I’ve been accused of lacking vision. I would say that I have vision, it just isn’t the same vision others are expecting if they think I am lacking a vision.
Great posts Dave, now I need to get back to work!
wow. this was a very encouraging read. i’m a young pastor (23…and a half!) from toronto and i feel the pressure of having a vision and knowing where you are headed or what you’re aiming for etc etc. however, deep inside i’ve always just felt the need to be present in each day and to live it out fully. to be who God would have us be TODAY. thanks so much for the encouraging words. blessings bro.
jt
Fascinating post and comments! Now that you mention it, goals and visions do seem rather meaningless when you consider that God touches everything in every way. How can you describe faith, or what it means to live faith, in a few bullet points? On the other hand, a church (or a business) is a human community that has some purpose(s). How would anything get done, how would basic human needs be met, without some sort of focus and direction? Somehow there has to be a balance, a balance between the practical and the eternal, between doing and being. Just where that balance is, I don’t know. Business has definitely wrecked the concepts of vision and mission through overuse. People don’t take vision and mission statements seriously and that’s why they change. Do you think that trend has spilled over into churches?
Well, with my teenagers, they can smell an agenda a mile away, and like rats to a trap, they’re gone!
Wow, this topic keeps getting so many responses. I browsed through, but I’ll have to go back and see what I may have missed.
Maybe the problem with “vision” is when the vision becomes another god; more important than anything else. I think that happens a lot, before people even realize it. Maybe if it is God’s vision for you, your life and your church, that’s great. When it becomes YOUR vision and becomes consuming, then the problems begin. Does that make any sense? That vision could become another false god?
If it makes no sense, let me know and I’ll go have another cup of java and try again:)
live today, just to see tomorrow
Right now I hate the word vision.
In our church we were yearly asked to write out our “vision” or goals for the next year. I was always frustrated because, for me, this was impossible. We were instructed that we were to follow the vision of the Apostle, but yet were to have our own vision for our lives. How do your serve someone else’s vision and yet have your own. So for me it mostly consisted of this: Hear the vision from the Apostle and Prophet in the house and then my part became making their vision happen. This changed often as their vision was constantly being changed. Each year I refused to play the game that I could really have my own vision.
I was frustrated because in the system of following someone else’s vision - there was no room for mine. This really became clear when someone’s vision was not accepted as from God from the leaders. The person had to change or leave. Their vision was to include yours - as long as it did not veer off the path that they wanted to go. As long as you were making them a success, your vision for your life was approved and lifted up as godly. But if it didn’t……watch out.
It does kill vision. It killed mine. Graduallly, over 17 years any vision I might have had was destroyed. We walked out a week ago. I have no idea what vision, especially mine looks like.
As far as family vision, I have 7 children. How am I to incorporate all of them under one vision. Each is supremely different from the other. Each needs to walk their own path at their own time. If I have any vision at all for them it is to be there when they need me and provide a Mom who can give sane counsel for their journey. I have desires for them but vision would be wrong to nail onto their lives. The times I have actually tried to come up with a vision for all of us, one of them usually knocks that vision clean off the tracks. Or God does. Or I do. It never worked. If it can’t work for a family of 9, how could it work for a church. Jesus cast the vision. Be loved by Him and love others in that light.
I like the idea - at least for a while - of having no vision. What if we just let God lead? What would that look like?
hey former leader.. exactly. and your story is only the graphic, rated 18 version of “vision”. And I believe rated “G” versions are just as dangerous and destructive.
heidi lou… thank you for what you said. my adrenal gland continually pumps… i spent a whole year unable to leave the house 10 years ago and although much better these days have to go very carefully sometimes… it’s hard to be kind to myself, i’m impatient and get easily depressed. my mum died at christmas and in the last 6 or 8 weeks i’ve been finding things tough and the whole idea of a vision is far too much pressure…
i feel for you… i hope you have a good husband as i have a wonderful wife (second time around!)… i sometimes wonder how she deals with me… and why!
fred… those aren’t visions… they’re just stuff you’re gonna do, or in the case of getting out of debt, have to do. i hope the trip away is good!
former leader… beautifully expressed… ‘Be loved by Him and love others in that light’… wise words… relish your family and enjoy this new place you find yourself in.
jon birch,
re: “fred… those aren’t visions… they’re just stuff you’re gonna do, or in the case of getting out of debt, have to do. i hope the trip away is good!”
Then we have different definitions of “vision.”
i suppose we must have.
i think when we adhere to visions someone always gets stood on and someone else invariably goes off in a huff! seen it just recently.
to think… when i sent my first comment in i was thinking, “poor nudie reverend, nobody’s commented on his blog…” now look… my vision of a naked american sat forlornly in front of his computer screen proved to be completely wrong! visions, pah!
Dont make a theology out of jaded experience…..this is what some of you are doing. From my viewpoint….some of you had a crappy experience and throwing the baby out with the bathwater and masking it in spirituality….which to me is the greater offense of rational.
Some people learn from their mistakes. Some people learn from the mistakes of others. Some people learn from the mistakes of the world. Like Paul with the official church of his day: he wiped his feet clean and moved on, realizing that the old wineskins couldn’t hold the new wine. Simple as that.
“throwing the baby out with the bathwater and masking it in spirituality”
there never was a baby and there never was any bathwater, that’s the trouble with ‘vision’. is there really a biblically sound theological view that says we must follow a vision?.. i don’t believe so.
“which to me is the greater offense of rational.”
personally i’m happy to offend rationale, if it gets in the way of god… always preferred kirk to spock… (maybe it’s cos he was canadian!)
isn’t it ironic, how vision can make you blind?!
You can also form a theology based on a positive experience.
Lots of great comments you guys, I’m never disappointed in the meaty wisdom offered here.
If it was just one crappy experience leading to tossing the baby, I would agree with you, John. How about twenty or thirty crappy experiences? What do you do with experience after experience where you are told that what you think or feel to be God’s leading is NOT, where you are told that your “job” as a church member is to remain completely loyal to all visions of the pastors (unless, of course, they are doing something (and I quote) “…REALLY wrong such as adultery or use of illegal drugs,” and where you are told again and again (and I quote) “People who don’t submit to leaders have something wrong with them.”
Hmmmm…I would guess that most people who are expressing concern with vision casting have been in these situations on a regular basis. Personally, I have experienced this type of leader manipulation many times:
-Pentecostal church under the leadership of at least three different senior ministers
(One of whom lied consistently to the board denying an extramarital affair that continued for eleven years!)
-Christian liberal arts college which forced at least two professors to resign for legalistic reasons
-Non-denominational church in which several of us who were leaving after a Sunday School class to attend worship services at another church were confronted by the main pastor in the parking lot who literally blocked our exit until we satisfied his curiousity about why we were leaving. (We didn’t go back. Ever.)
-homeschooling groups which subtly imply that a particular “Christian” curriculum is better than (GASP!) “secular humanist” materials.
-Christian school whose teacher handbook rivals any cult requirements I’ve ever heard of
-Baptist church with a “We welcome everyone” vision and a “Not everyone qualifies for inclusion in the inner circle” reality.
Isn’t it RATIONAL to learn from experiences? How silly to keep touching hot things when all you get is burned!
I haven’t thrown out the baby; I’m trying to protect it by purifying the bathwater. (And I am happy to know that now I can buy purification tablets so I don’t even have to go near that damn hot stove!)
It’s funny, but it seems to me that everything that has been said about vision COULD BE said about Christianity in general–depending on your point of view.
It is rather weird, fortuitous, and supernatural (a friend agreed) that you should post these posts this week. Last week I was whining to a friend about not having direction in my life. To which he responded something to the effect of why do we have to try to GO SOMEWHERE all the time. Okay, so maybe those weren’t his exact words but essentially he was asking me why can’t I be content with where God has brought me right here — right now.
I’m not content because I’ve allowed the so-called “vision” taint and create a sense of incapability and disdain for the very place where God has brought me. All for the hope of a better vision. I think we want a vision because we have been raised believing that we should have a vision and if we don’t then we are completely lazy, disorganized, and not very American — in other words, we aren’t acceptable without having a vision to bring to the table. So be it.
Anyway, thanks for these past few posts.
Vision Shmision…. I’ve spent too many years with people dreaming about the next big thing that they’ve lost sight of the day-to-day. The low Protestant/evangelical/fundamentalist churches that litter the American countryside have simply forgotten that Jesus in the Gospels was more concerned with bringing the Kingdom to Earth today (and everyday) than planning for some pie-in-the-sky, everything-is-wonderful future.
I, like Nate (& many others it seems), have been plagued with these ideas of vision & the need to have a vision at all times. I’ve come to feel that I’d rather be short-sighted than far-sighted; I’d rather take care of the hurts & needs in front of me right now than manifest some utopia in the far-off future. I used to get frustrated with not having a purpose or the right kind of 3-, 5-, & 10-year plan, but not anymore. I’m in the midst of the right now for a reason — I might not know what tomorrow looks like & I’m OK with that.
Perhaps this has been said over the past 100+ comments in two posts. If so, I humbly prostrate myself and beg forgiveness…
I realize that “vision” has a different connotation depending on your experience. The context I hear it most in is when a church is seeking what God would have them do. In reality, it’s not really the church but the pastor(s) who brings the message down from the mountain.
The problem creeps in because the “vision” is not ascribed to the pastor’s personal preferences. But instead it’s given as the will of God Himself. So if you don’t “get” the vision or have some concerns then you’re not only not submitting to church leadership, but you’re outside of God’s will. Your spirituality is in question and your commitment to the church is seen as lacking.
And then what if the vision fails? Then the blame falls on the congregation and their “lack of faith” or some such scapegoat for the pastor’s failed gaze into the crystal ball.
This kind of vision sucks and it’s only purpose is to spiritualize mere opinion.
Ah, Adam P. Newton, I don’t believe anyone in these responses has advocated the need for having vision “all the time.” I’ve gone through long periods with no vision just waiting for God to show me what to do, where to go. And usually when he does, the answer is fairly short-term; the next two years or the next four years.
But acknowledging that there isn’t vision “all the time” is a far cry from saying that all vision is demonic or bondage or whatever…
to the americans on this blog…
how do the ‘american dream’ and the need to have a vision relate?.. as someone who has american friends but has never visited, it seems that vision is such a key to the way the culture moves… is this true in reality and how do you understand the way your american upbringing has affected your faith?
it’s a question i often ask myself. i’m english, the scriptures aren’t… and i bring my cultural understanding and limitations to my faith, hoping that i can find the truth…
it just strikes me that in this particular conversation there is something cultural that would always expect you to follow a vision… is this true, or just rubbish?
what does it say in james? if someone is hungry and you say ‘god bless you’…what the f*** does that do for that man….give him some f*cking bread…live NOW…not in some vision, not in what “may” come, live NOW, love NOW, give bread Now.
Jon Birch:
Yes, we Americans do seem to thrive on having a vision and being goal obsessed and making that “American dream” a reality. We are taught from an early age that goal setting is necessary, that bigger is better, that lack of success means lack of gumption, etc., etc. It’s hard for most Americans to really kick back and relax.
This emphasis on self-improvement and goal setting has permeated the American church in a big way. It has permeated families in a big way. And not always with the best of results.
I think that this emphasis on the goals–the dream–the vision–has become one of many masks we wear. Behind it, marriages and families and churches are falling apart; but it’s okay because the numbers on the papers look good. There are “growing” megachurches that don’t remove former members names from the roster, marriages of twenty years that have been dead for eight, families whose smiling faces at Disneyworld can’t be found anywhere behind closed doors at home. America is paying a price for the “dream” because we can’t fix what we don’t acknowledge. And over-preoccupation with the dream takes our focus from the real issues.
Is it this way in other cultures? I weep for mine, but I suspect that we are not really all that different from many other places in the world.
Give me a break, sarah. Vision is not just about the future…it IS about now! Give him bread NOW. THAT is vision. We call our church a “vision-driven church” and the church has been involved in the community from day one–soup kitchen, clothing center, etc. Vision doesn’t just mean future.
You’re right Fred — Vision doesn’t just mean future. I know that & I agree with that. But that’s not how “vision” is defined in a great many churches these days. What Sarah is saying is what I’ve said before in conversations with my friends — the church gets so wrapped up in their vision for the future & their vision for eternity that they aren’t able to see in the here & now. If your church has a vision for right now, this instant, this immediate need, then I’m excited to hear about that, because you stand in the minority.
And concerning vision all the time, I know that no one here is advocating that, but again, there are unhealthy church cultures that socialize their members to believe that, unless they HAVE the vision for the future (i.e. the one that matches their pastor’s vision EXACTLY), they’re not the Christian they’re supposed to be and not good enough to serve in the Kingdom.
I know that not all churches are like this, but I’ve been in enough churches & sold enough books in my 6 (yes, 6) years of Christian retailing to know that this definition of “vision” is the majority one in LP/E/F churches in America.
thanx ttm… as you know, we brits, although different (we’re a little island… that makes us a bit paranoid, grumpy and self important) we still seem to take from american culture… our corporations and big businesses are proparbly very similar to yours, vision driven. the best example is in the ‘where there’s blame there’s a claim’ culture… eg. fall downstairs, take someone to court, get award a million quid and live the dream!… all for no effort. i hate the way our culture is going in that respect… it makes people scared to help others or do anything really… a great example of vision trampling on the here and now and the selfish drive that vision can inspire.
our marriages are in a similar state to yours, the statistics i believe are the same in the church as they are in the rest of the culture… could be said, that the marriage didn’t live up to the vision!
in other ways though, it’s a great little country. we cancelled the 3rd world debt… and i know that had nothing to do with vision… our chancellor, who is a methodist, looked at the figures and they didn’t add up and he couldn’t square it with his beliefs, he thought it was unfair and so for him it was a ‘no-brainer’.
so we’re a right old mixed bag here…