Tony Jones is trying to scrub the internet!

"Burying the Truth" cartoon by nakedpastor David Hayward

“Burying the Truth” cartoon by nakedpastor David Hayward

Tony Jones is employing every resource possible to silence his ex’s story. Here is a letter from his lawyer

“… asking his ex-wife to delete her comments wherever she has tried to tell her story online. This is a severe silencing attempt, and feels like bullying, since many would obey an attorney’s request as if it were a court order. But it is not an order at all. Whether you take down is entirely at your discretion. If ordered to remove, you have a solid First Amendment case not to.” (Stuff Christian Culture Likes)

You must read it!

It all began with this post where he made a comment and his ex followed suit and began to tell her story. Since then, as the letter indicates, there are about 55 different people mentioned, and 165+ URLs named. He would like any mention of him and his ex scrubbed from all my sites and every site on the internet. That would be thousands of references. If I included all my sites that they listed (they didn’t even list them all), the task would be monumental. Plus, the number of my cartoons and posts that people have shared beyond me just makes this an outrageous request impossible to fulfill.

I’ve been reading up on scrubbing the internet. It’s what New Yorker Magazine calls “black-ops reputation management”. As this article says…

“the internet may forgive, but it never forgets. You can’t force amnesia on the internet, so you’re best off not even trying.”

In fact, what usually happens is what is called The Streisand Effect. When she tried to scrub a story from the internet, it had the reverse effect and just made it more public. This is exactly what is going to happen to this story. It is just going to become more public. Things will get worse.

Again, this is what I’ve said from the beginning, so I’m going to write it in bold font:

This is not about the messy breakup of a marriage, but the attempt to cover up the abuse involved.

This is just more of the same, ramped up and on steroids. Some may comply because they are afraid, or may not realize that this isn’t being required of them, or out of wanting to please Tony, etcetera. I know I’m afraid.

This is no longer about the freedom of speech of one woman to tell her story, but the freedom of speech for hundreds of people, including those who advocate for survivors of abuse and combat attempts to silence and shame them. So, this has become a personal attack on my freedom of speech too!

My intentions are to not be silenced myself, and to continue to provide places for people to share their experiences, like here on nakedpastor and in my online community, The Lasting Supper.

So far so good.

SHOP

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53 Responses

  1. Nate says:

    Love this, keep up the fight. Tony Jones is the Mark Driscoll of the emergent Christian movement, but probably worse. Tony Jones is, quite succinctly, an abusive person, a bad husband, and a bad father. And we know *ALL OF THIS* through public documents.

  2. Curtis says:

    Tony knows full well how the Streisand Effect works. This is a case if his ego being bigger than his brain — thinking he canbturn off the internet whenever he wants to. There are people around my town who know Tony, but haven’t heard of his silencing of Julie until now. Tony’s escalation of the suppression attempts will simply cause the story to spread even more.

  3. Lydia says:

    Let me see if I have this straight. Tony’s lawyer sends this letter to Julie and in it we see that SHE is to contact that long list ad ask them take posts, comments down relating to either one of them that entails her speaking of her personal experience and also interactions with others?

    So she starts sending out the letter to those listed in the letter—-which shows what she was told to do and now the letter is on the internet for all to read.

    Tony, whatever you are paying your lawyer, it is too much.

  4. Lydia says:

    Yeah, the Streisand effect is obvious but there is a very creepy component to this I hope people catch on to. And it reminds me of people who get up in the morning and google themselves.

    It does not surprise me he is obsessed with himself and what is being said about him on social media. That is who he is and it comes with the territory of what he has chosen to do with his life. Most ministry types are like this to some extent. But this is downright creepy and unproductive. There is a stalking element to it that is unnecessary. Not to mention the Orwellian element.

    Tony uses social media as part of his shitck. He has had the opportunity to carefully craft his public image for a long time. He can still use the opportunity to write pieces that place him in a certain light even if subtle using his ministry shitck.

    He is trying to deny the same free speech opportunity to Julie.

    And don’t buy the mantra about the kids. If Tony cared about the kids he would have not broken the visitation agreement.

    Will the judge be told about his convo where he said he wanted to murder his ex wife?

    The Tony movement celebs who are looking the other way or trying to convince people they have “boundaries” or are following their “conscience” might wake up one day and find that most of their followers find thier boundaries dangerous and their conscience is seared. Then they will have supported an NPD for nothing.

  5. Bill Kinnon says:

    The ridiculous nature of what Tony Jones and his lawyer, M. Sue Wilson have demanded above and beyond what the Family Court Judge requested beggars belief. It is simply madness. The fact that I, for one, am identified in the letter as Julie’s Facebook friend brings up questions of privacy (how have they ascertained this as my profile is limited to Friends only) and borders on creepy. Somehow ToJo and SueM. expect Julie to ask me to take down this post, where I mention them both. Ridiculous and not going to happen.

  6. Wendy says:

    That order regarding internet posts is enforceable ONLY in relation to the posts by Mr. Jones and Ms. McMahon. You, David, are not a party to the suit and are, therefore, not constrained to orders imposed to those that are. It is absurd to attempt to silence third parties. And the attorney should know that. Only Ms. McMahon’s comments have to be removed, by her. If she can’t remove them, they can’t do anything to her if the administrator refuses to remove them for her. Talk about attempted intimidation and attempted silence. Not a genius maneuver. This guy needs to freaking move on!

  7. OK, I want to be included in the list of people who need to be contacted and “scrubbed.” If it is OK with you, I will repost this on my blog with my comments about the situation.

  8. Bill Kinnon says:

    By the way, does this cartoon constitute another “likeness of Tony as drawn by a cartoonist friend of Julie’s.” (Which also leads to the question of “What’s with the casual use of first names in this lawyer’s letter?” Tony could be Tony Soprano, and Julie, Julie Andrews.)

  9. Lydia says:

    Someone please correct me if I am wrong but is the judge:

    this:http://www.scribd.com/doc/265151587/Jones-McMahon-Court-Order-4-1-15

    the same person, Mary Madden, who was a partner with Jones’ attorney, Sue Wilson?

  10. Teague Frawley says:

    This letter makes it obvious that both Tony Jones and his attorney are delusional narcissistic megalomaniacs. There’s really not much more that is worth saying. Which unfortunately also describes many if not most church leaders.

  11. Jeff says:

    This letter references a post of mine from 2013 that 1) precedes these allegations, 2) doesn’t mention, quote, or feature comments from Julie, and 3) is about an entirely different matter. But it had Jones’ name in the title, and apparently it was enough. Laughing at this helps me to keep from feeling angry and insulted.

  12. Ducatihero says:

    So – if I understand rightly, from May 11th both parties are to cease commenting about each other by court order, and both are to remove comments about the other under their own name or pseudonym as far as they are able.

    OK, so both are equally required by a court ruling to do so.

    The bit I don’t understand is why Julie is being asked by Jones’ lawyer to provide evidence of removal of “every single post” and requested for proof of that. Surely they don’t have the authority to enforce that on her? And like you say isn’t it a bit silly – given that it would be impossible to remove everything?

    I note these same lawyers don’t have the same enthusiasm for mentioning the posts that Jones’ has made and providing evidence of removal of them.

    OK so the story is out – what now? What can be the best thing that can be achieved given what is happening?

  13. Caryn LeMur says:

    Tony: as someone diagnosed with PTSD and with GID, I want to stress that you truly can manage your NPD. You need to run these ideas by your therapist before you pay your lawyer. You therapist can help you.

    Yes, Tony, I believe that you will get twice the attention now. And Tony, I believe you will most likely enjoy the attention. But Tony, you will not be able to recover from this madness.

    Hear me out, Tony. You will become a liability to the Emerging Church Movement since now, you have shown that you can publish, and run and hide…. and tell everyone to hide with you.

    “Hi, I am Tony. Join me and publish for years… and when others don’t like what we write or how we behave, we can stop the Freedom of Speech, retract that we are Limited Purpose Public Figures, and scrub the Internet clean! Yes! Join me!”

    – Will Brian McLaren remove your picture from his wikipedia page and scrub every mention of you? Will Doug P. remove every mention of you from Solomon’s Porch? Of course not… but if you succeed in removing a few of Julie’s friends, don’t you realize that your friends will also need to comply?

    Furthermore, the Emerging Church Movement cannot afford to have you as one of their three remaining stars – because no one will pay attention to the ideas, rather, everyone will be distracted by your attempt to scrub the Internet. Read that last statement twice, Tony… really.

    Brian and Doug probably want their ideas remembered as their legacy to Christianity… and NOT be remembered that they supported your attempt to stop the Freedom of Speech, intimidate through court and legal documents, and SCRUB CLEAN THE WORLD-WIDE INTERNET.

    Tony, think about it. You are committing professional suicide because you are fixated on controlling your reputation.

    Yes, I know that Rachel Held Evans had a husband that deleted all the comments of women begging her to reconsider a clear association with the JoPa Group (and, of which you are the ‘Jo’ in the JoPa name). And RHE is continuing on … but she left the Emerging Church Movement to become an Episcopalian (last I checked).

    And yes, I know that Nadia’s husband stopped all comments of people and then he ‘accidentally’ deleted them… and he boldly stated in writing that Nadia never read the comments nor did anyone ‘that loved her’ ever share the comments with Nadia. [Only to have Nadia post a few days later asking people which Book Cover they would prefer… Nadia has difficulty with either obeying her husband or understanding ‘consistency’ or ‘integrity’…] Thus, Nadia’s credibility is shot … and shot by herself.

    But Tony, neither RHE nor Nadia attempted to scrub the Internet. Yes, they hid behind their husbands. And yes, you are hiding behind your lawyer. But neither of these minor players has attempted to scrub the Internet… and now, your NPD appears to be out of control on the Word-wide Stage.

    Tony: You are not the Golden Idol of Nebuchadnezzar… no one will bow down to you and worship you … indeed, those that refuse to honor your madness are the ones that God will protect. [Book of Daniel, chapter 3]

    Tony: please see your therapist. You are about to become the laughing stock of the Emerging Church Movement… you are committing professional suicide.

    Sincerely; Caryn LeMur

  14. Franklin says:

    If anything, Tony’s actions are only proving how much of a unrelenting, unyielding, unrepentant narcissist he really is. Shame on him. To be so obsessed over his reputation. Ugh.

  15. Franklin says:

    If anything, Tony’s actions are only proving how much of a unrelenting, unyielding, unrepentant narcissist he really is. Shame on him. To be so obsessed over his reputation. Ugh.

  16. Andy says:

    Erhm, Tony and his lawyer do know about Google and the Wayback Machine, right?

    It’s Internet 101, which every middle schooler now learns: if it’s online, it’s permanent.

    Step 1: Don’t be a douche.

  17. I couldn’t stop laughing yesterday when I came across that letter and found a couple of my posts listed on it! I’m a ‘nobody’ from Australia!!! This guy is paranoid 😛

  18. beatrice says:

    The court order was written by someone who understands the futility of trying to scrub this off the Internet. Julie and Tony are asked to remove THEIR OWN POSTS AND COMMENTS, “as far as they are able.” Well, if a post has comments frozen, Julie can’t delete her comment/s. If someone has put something – anything! – on Tumblr on the topic, one re-blog and it’s now out there for good. The original post is off and running and the author cannot recall it or delete it. S/he can delete their post at their Tumblr, that’s it. Same goes for Twitter. If it’s been re-Tweeted, the original Tweet can be deleted, but the reTweets will still contain it. Facebook too.
    Julie can delete EVERY POST SHE HAS EVER MADE ANYWHERE and it won’t make a bit of difference. If anyone has taken screenshots of comments (hint hint), they can be posted on another domain, or in Scribd, and Julie has no connection to it. She can follow that court order, and no information will be lost.

  19. Too funny. But also sad and, as someone who has been on the receiving end of legal abuse from an ex with a diagnosed personality disorder, creepy and even a little scary. The fact that Tony may intellectually know about the Streisand effect and the fact that very little is ever truly “lost” once it’s been placed online plays less of a factor than many people seem to think. Those suffering from an unmanaged mental illness don’t necessarily make decisions in a way that looks rational or sensible to an observer. In fact, it’s pretty much a given that at least some of their actions and decisions will not appear rational. I’ve learned not to try to make sense of the senseless. That’s crazy-making.

    I’ve never understood where all the lawyers who seem willing to collude with them come from, though. 😉

    My blog has never been read by very many people and lately I’ve rarely posted. But there’s a part of me that wants to write a post about Tony Jones just to see if I can make one of his lists. I probably won’t, but it’s an amusing thought.

  20. Michaela says:

    So I just contacted more of the United States’ top First Amendment legal rights groups and gave them a copy of Tony Jones’ attorney’s letter to Julie. (It should be noted that Tony’s attorney wrote the Order for the judge to sign.)

    I let them know that Tony Jones and his attorney are trying to silence the First Amendment rights of bloggers in the U.S. (and have made the ‘you’ve been warned’ threats to David Hayward in Canada at The Naked Pastor. I don’t know if Bill Kinnon got same in Canada.)

  21. Michaela says:

    An update: I just contacted two media organizations (radio) about Tony Jones (and his attorney) trying to silence the First Amendment rights of bloggers in the US and Free Speech in Canada.

    If you think of groups that could cover this story in the media, please send them an email and links (to The Naked Pastor and to The Wartburg Watch).

  22. Bridget says:

    Is it just me or is the person making out in this deal Tony’s lawyer? She must surely know how ridiculous this letter is. Yet she has no problem continuing on with Tony’s requests. I’m sure she is collecting a hefty fee with every move Tony makes. She, like Tony, isn’t really concerned with Tony’s family. Tony and his lawyer are just feeding off of each other.

    Lydia,

    If what you stated above about the judge is true, that just seems ethically wrong.

  23. Ducatihero says:

    Thinking more broadly. To what degree is the internet activity (including my own) regarding this sad affair actually helping either party or humanity as a whole I wonder? We talk about the ills of one individual, but how much of what is happening is something we all have a part in and therefore responsibility to take?

    Is there something about this scandal, that we enjoy (however slightly) but would not admit publicly?

    It seems to me that part of the problem is living in a culture that encourages someone with NPD by rewarding their dysfunctional conduct with attention, therefore being dysfunctional, with a broken and sometimes sick society being the outcome, like a nasty negative political campaign running up to an election instead of one with mutual flourishing and thriving.

    I asked earlier, what’s the best that can be achieved. Having thought about it, I would like to suggest that sometimes all that is being achieved is prolonging misery and suffering and creating and enabling a culture of fear and retribution.

    If this is the outcome then it is sad not only for the couple involved, but for all of us.

  24. Ben Denison says:

    This isn’t about making the material go away; I doubt Tony is so foolish as to think that could happen. This is about Tony doing the same thing Tony has been doing all along: using his greater money and time resources to bury Julie in legal actions, adding another one every time he sees something new out of his control, forcing her to spend her more limited money and time responding and defending herself.

    And it’s probably about trying to set her up to fail — look at that May 12th lawyer letter the day after the court order, the humongous list of things she would have to try to do. Even a good-faith effort looks impossible to accomplish, and as people keep posting, it will get worse. And then when she shows up at the next hearing, the judge will ask what she did to comply. Anything that happens next can only benefit Tony and harm Julie further. I hope the judge looks at the May 12th lawyer letter and agrees that’s impossible.

    What I can’t fathom is what the judge was thinking, writing an order like that in the first place. Saying they should stop fighting through social media going forward is one thing, but ordering her to try to remove all past comments? It’s ludicrous. And it’s a testament to what can happen in the legal system when one person can pay for lots of lawyer time, and the other person is pro se because her resources have already been depleted.

  25. Melody says:

    Two things: Tony should just quit calling himself a Christian at this point for a variety of reasons. Secondly, thank God for Canadians.

  26. Michaela says:

    “What I can’t fathom is what the judge was thinking, writing an order like that in the first place. Saying they should stop fighting through social media going forward is one thing, but ordering her to try to remove all past comments? It’s ludicrous. And it’s a testament to what can happen in the legal system when one person can pay for lots of lawyer time, and the other person is pro se because her resources have already been depleted.”

    @Ben,

    Just a note that the judge didn’t write the Order. Tony’s attorney wrote the Order and had a place for the judge to sign and date it. Since Julie doesn’t have legal counsel, she couldn’t afford to contest it, which is what an attorney would have done representing her.

    Tony Jones and his attorney are trying to silence Free Speech in at least three countries: the United States (Julie’s, Deb and Dee at the Wartburg Watch, Brad Sargent, Stoller, Julie Anne at Spiritual Sounding Board);
    Canada (The Naked Pastor/David Hayward and Bill Kinnon), and Living Liminal in Australia!

    I have contacted the United States’ top Free Speech rights groups about this and gave them copies of Tony Jones’ attorney’s letter to Julie. I have also contacted major talk radio programs to cover this story.

  27. Bridget says:

    Michaela –

    “Tony’s attorney wrote the Order and had a place for the judge to sign and date it. Since Julie doesn’t have legal counsel, she couldn’t afford to contest it, which is what an attorney would have done representing her.”

    Why in the world did the judge sign this? Is the judge not capable of her own critical thinking skills without a lawyer on the other side pointing out the problem? Did Tony’s lawyer just find a judge who would be simpathetic to Tony’s story? Was this judge familiar with the entire history? This is all bizzare to me.

  28. PastorM says:

    So, guess who was on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” this morning pushing his new book?

  29. Michaela says:

    “Ducatihero May 15, 2015 at 2:18 am
    Thinking more broadly. To what degree is the internet activity (including my own) regarding this sad affair actually helping either party or humanity as a whole I wonder? We talk about the ills of one individual, but how much of what is happening is something we all have a part in and therefore responsibility to take?”

    I think the internet covering this story, starting with David Hayward at The Naked Pastor in Canada, and giving Julie McMahon a voice is terrific after her ex-husband Tony Jones used his power in The Emergent Church movement, his friends (“pastors” Brian McLaren in Florida and Doug Pagitt in Minnesota), and the courts to silence and intimidate Julie. Journalism and the media have long played a role in exposing injustices of all kinds. Let it continue.

    Julie is a human being and we should care about her. We are the “church”. We are doing what these “pastors” failed to do to help, support, and defend her and her three children.

    I would like to point out that there is only one person who is responsible for Tony Jones’ actions: Tony Jones. Why does Tony Jones do what he does? It’s simple: Because he wants to! It has nothing to do with NPD diagnosis, etc. He enjoys doing it. The rest of us DO NOT share the responsibility for his personal choices.

  30. Michaela says:

    “Why in the world did the judge sign this? Is the judge not capable of her own critical thinking skills without a lawyer on the other side pointing out the problem? Did Tony’s lawyer just find a judge who would be sympathetic to Tony’s story? Was this judge familiar with the entire history? This is all bizarre to me.”

    @Bridget,

    Sadly it happens all of the time in the courts. If Julie could have afforded an attorney, that attorney would have stopped this.

    Lydia asked the question if the family court judge Mary Madden is Tony Jones’ attorney’s former law partner. I don’t know that and I haven’t had time to investigate that.

  31. Ben Denison says:

    @Melody “Tony should just quit calling himself a Christian at this point” — that’s exactly what I thought a few minutes after I posted. 1 Cor. 6:7 “The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?” WWJD has become a cliche, but honestly Tony — is venting this level of vindictiveness through the legal process what Jesus would have done? What are you saying to the world about the Gospel you’re supposedly preaching?

    @Michaela “the judge didn’t write the Order. Tony’s attorney wrote the Order and had a place for the judge to sign and date it.” — I get that, and I know that’s fairly common practice. But I agree with Bridget — the bottom line is that the judge had the responsibility to consider every word in the order before she signed it. She could have red-lined it, and I still can’t understand why she thought requiring retroactive deletion was reasonable. I generally agree with the adversarial process but this situation is where justice breaks down… no public defenders for civil matters, so if you can’t afford an attorney, you just get slammed?

    My hope is that the judge meant it when she signed an order that reads “to the extent that they are able to do so” — and won’t consider the long list in the May 12 lawyer’s letter to be the bar that Julie has to meet.

  32. Michaela says:

    Hi Folks,

    Just a reminder that Dee at The Wartburg Watch has kept open a GoFundMe “Encouragment Fund” for Julie McMahon. Donations of any size to help Julie with living expenses (large, medium, and small) and legal expenses.

    http://www.gofundme.com/ko5bn8?utm_content=buffer30c17&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    It’s also at the top of the page here: http://thewartburgwatch.com/

    Thank you!

  33. Michaela says:

    @Ben,
    I concur with your views about that Minnesota family law judge who signed that Order and who didn’t toss it out, red-line, etc. Sad and bad.

  34. Michaela says:

    @Ben,

    It occurred to me that if the family court judge who signed the Order is Tony Jones’ attorney’s former law partner (Lydia thought that might be the case), then the judge should have recused herself from hearing this case.

    I am filing a complaint with the Minnesota Supreme Court Chief Justice against the judge, Tony Jones (who should be marked as a vexatious litigant), and against Tony Jones’ attorney.

  35. Yasmin says:

    Just a speculation about Tony’s attorneys: I’m willing to bet that they wrote out pretty much what we’ve been saying – that all of this just makes him look worse and worse – presented it to him, and had him sign it, to cover themselves. He is paying them to do it, and they’ll be careful to be able to defend themselves, so they will do whatever he pays them to do. The letter is an absurdity. Since he and his friends won’t obey it, perhaps we should all post copies of their still-online posts, and copies of the letter, to publicize Tony’s honesty.

    Caryn LeMur, Tony may read your comments to him, but I wonder how he will process them. He’s intelligent, so he must understand the consequences of what he’s doing. It speaks to his mental illness that he is acting in a way so destructive to himself, so calculated to defeat his purpose. Is he so ill that he is no longer rational? I seriously wonder.

    Ducatihero: To allow the voices of victims to be heard protects other people from becoming victims. Wouldn’t you want to know if someone or something presented a danger? Are you saying that notices of defective children’s toys, for example, don’t help at all? That is what this is, an attempt to warn abusers that their victims will be heard, and that Tony Jones is an abuser, and that people should be aware and careful of that. Warning others of danger is ALWAYS a good thing to do. I can’t understand why you can’t see that.

  36. Headless Unicorn Guy says:

    “I’ve never understood where all the lawyers who seem willing to collude with them come from, though. ?”
    — Scott Mozirot

    MONEY TALKS.

  37. Headless Unicorn Guy says:

    Franklin —

    As someone who grew up with a probable NPD:

    NPDs are Totally Utterly INCAPABLE of feeling shame. Or remorse. Or guilt. An NPD can feel only two things:
    1) Total Utter All-Consuming Admiration for Himself.
    2) Screaming murderous fits of Rage when his ass isn’t being kissed constantly by the rest of the Universe.

  38. Headless Unicorn Guy says:

    “Lydia asked the question if the family court judge Mary Madden is Tony Jones’ attorney’s former law partner. I don’t know that and I haven’t had time to investigate that.” — Michaela

    If true, can you say “Conflict of Interest” and “One Hand Washes The Other”?

  39. Headless Unicorn Guy says:

    “I would like to point out that there is only one person who is responsible for Tony Jones’ actions: Tony Jones. Why does Tony Jones do what he does? It’s simple: Because he wants to!” — Michaela

    Don’t forget the motto of King Joffrey Baratheon-Lannister:
    “BECAUSE I CAN.”

  40. Lydia says:

    “To allow the voices of victims to be heard protects other people from becoming victims. Wouldn’t you want to know if someone or something presented a danger? Are you saying that notices of defective children’s toys, for example, don’t help at all? That is what this is, an attempt to warn abusers that their victims will be heard, and that Tony Jones is an abuser, and that people should be aware and careful of that. Warning others of danger is ALWAYS a good thing to do. I can’t understand why you can’t see that.”

    it is really uncanny people cannot see this, isn’t it? They have had it ingrained that it is “Unchristian” to speak about such things. And they raise the bar for proof so high that it becomes impossible to be believed about ones own experiences. They use the bible as a proof texting weapon to protect evil deeds and harm the innocent. All of this just adds to the problem of church becoming so fake and shallow all the while claiming they are so deep and pious.

    I think much of it comes out of class system thinking (cult of personality) that is pervading our culture. If one is a sports star, domestic violence is over looked. If one is a pastor or celebrity Christian not only is spiritual abuse and other abuses overlooked but overlooking abuse by your celeb cronies is casually accepted and asking questions is seen as breaching their “boundaries”. They make their living saying “Look at me!” (buy my books and come to my conferences) but just don’t ask me questions I don’t like or expect me to be who I said I was.

  41. Ducatihero says:

    Thanks for your replies everyone to my earlier comments. Here is a summary:

    Ducatihero May 15, 2015 at 2:18 am “how much of what is happening is something we all have a part in and therefore responsibility to take?”

    Michaela May 15, 2015 at 2:39 pm “Julie is a human being and we should care about her.”

    I agree.

    Yasmin May 16, 2015 at 2:32 pm “Warning others of danger is ALWAYS a good thing to do. I can’t understand why you can’t see that.”

    I had given though to not engaging with your reply Yasmin, but as I think you are coming from a sincere place, I will answer in what I hope will be a reasonable way. So wanting of danger, yes of course in principle it is a good thing to do. What loving parent after all would not warn their children of the danger with fire? So of course your question about children’s toys is rhetorical and therefore doesn’t need answering. If I understand you correctly, then you perceive that I have some aversion to this. You haven’t cited anything from my previous comments that would leave you with this impression. The only think I can think of that you are objecting to is the suggestion that depending on how these kind of issues are addressed then sometimes all that happens is a prolonging of misery and suffering with the creating and enabling of fear and retribution. I think that comment was appropriate. Therefore as mentioned I do agree about the care for Julie, not that she is abused. I also case that we live in a culture where justice freedom and mutual thriving exists, not one of fear and retribution. I think the perception you have formed of me not seeing a need is mistaken. I would kindly ask you to consider your conclusion.

    Lydia May 17, 2015 at 11:00 am “it is really uncanny people cannot see this, isn’t it? They have had it ingrained that it is “Unchristian” to speak about such things. ”

    I would kindly ask you the same Lydia for the same reasons.

    I see a lot of fear and retribution. Perhaps as an outsider to the US and Canada, I come at things fomr a different perspective, at lease certainly a different cultural perspective. Just this week I have been reading a comment elsewhere with a blogger forming the impression that the church in the US has a reputation of being alive but is dead – perhaps he is right.

    My impression of the US from the occasions I have visited and worked there is that there is the wonderful culture of positive optimism about freedom and pioneering spirit about anything being possible. Of course the freedom does come if one has the means to have it and can come at the cost’s to other’s freedom. Therefore as God has blessed America, what America has also become is a culture in which there is greed, fear and retribution.

    What I am aware of is many abandoning church in the the US. I see many finding answered to concerns and shared journeys online in a way that was not met by church experiences. I find myself in that place.

    So what are the answers?

    Well, as individuals with any fear, my mind goes to the marvelous hymn amazing Grace. “T’was grace that taught my heart to fer and grace my fear relieved”. I would like to suggest that where there is need for change the best any one of us can do either as individuals or corporately is to be the change, that it whatever “wrong” there is in any of us to have a duty first of all to address that before exerting any influence on others, knowing that healing and strength comes with that in what I think of as God (and many may find in ways particular to differing journeys) with humanity being created with original goodness by God and out journey being about celebrating the empowerment that is in that to do good.

    Though this journey not being without facing pain and fear. Naturally as I understand it we are adverse to pain and fear. But what is the alternative, make ourselves so guarded and immune to suffering so as to make ourselves immune to the suffering of others?

    Yasmin and Lydia, it is not without pain that I read your comments. I do hear your points that you think I have not seen the need for warning of danger, that you believe I think of it as “unChristian” to talk about such things, and that you may even believe that my comments are akin to protecting evil deeds and harming the innocent, using the bible as a proof texting weapon to that end and contributing to a problem of church becoming fake and shallow while claiming to be deep and pious. These concern me.

  42. Outraged church lady says:

    I don ‘t understand why everyone is so scared of this guy. He just seems like a big bully.surely there are enough resources and lawyers in the Christian Communuty to outnumber him and outsmart him. I doubt he has much going for him other than threatening and trying to wield a big club.
    Certainly he is not acting like a Christian. It is hard to believe he has any respect at all in the Chrustian Community.

  43. Lydia says:

    Ducathero,

    We have been down this road before, several times, in fact. The more words you use the less I understand what point you want to communicate. And that is ok. :o)

  44. Lydia says:

    Ducathero,

    We have been down this same road many times on other threads. Again, I am unclear on exactly what it is that you are trying to communicate.

    And that is ok. :o)

  45. Ducatihero says:

    Thanks Lydia,

    I’m trying to make it aware to you that when you express certain things to me then they are painful to me to read. If I have done something inappropriate, I accept that experiencing pain is right and that such pain demands attention.

    However if I experience such pain when not doing anything wrong, I’m going to ask you to consider attending to what you have expressed. For instance on this occasion supporting Yasmin in her claim that I don’t see that warning others is a good thing to do. You have implied the same in doing so.

    I find both comments disrespectful and painful to read, given the background that you rightly talk of with having gone down the same road many times. As you have brought this up I will mention the accusations either of abuse or supporting abuse akin to supporting Jone’s abuse of Julie that you have claimed.

    Again, if I have been like that, then what you have done is right and the pain I experience of reading what you claim is due to your righteous indignation at my commenting. However if your claim has been inaccurate, then just as equally, the pain I will have experienced will have been as a result of being wronged by you.

    Previously I have shared about a personal journey of forgiving. Forgiveness is not supporting abuse or making an abuser feel comfortable in their conduct. It is powerful, loving results in an abuser feeling shame and being uncomfortable, it frees the abused and if the abuser stops the abuse, is conducive to reconciliation. I’ve known this in my life.

    To be accused of enabling an supporting abuse on sharing such (as I recall has happened here is painful) unless I put a fortress around my heart. In comments above although there are nothing like such claim, they are a trigger for me, a reminder about previous occasions and feelings associated with the that you rightly mention. Again, if I put a fortress round my heart, no big deal, if I let my guard down, pain.

    So I guess it depends on what you would like. If you continue with such claims you’ll get the fortress, if you are open to considering my request about attending to how you express then perhaps things can change in the way you see me engage.

    I respect your freedom to choose and to experience the consequences of your choice whatever you do :).

    Thanks again for responding.

  46. Michaela says:

    “I don ‘t understand why everyone is so scared of this guy. He just seems like a big bully.surely there are enough resources and lawyers in the Christian Communuty to outnumber him and outsmart him. I doubt he has much going for him other than threatening and trying to wield a big club.
    Certainly he is not acting like a Christian. It is hard to believe he has any respect at all in the Chrustian Community.” — Outraged church lady

    @O.C. lady,
    If you know of Christian attorneys, or even atheists, in the St. Paul, Minnesota, area who could give probono help to Julie McMahon, please contact them. Where are they? (I’ll we’ve heard from the so-called “pastor” friends of Tony Jones’, such as “pastor” Brian McLaren in Florida and “pastor” Doug Pagitt in Minnesota are threats toward Julie and putdowns. Brian McLaren threatened to sue Julie.)

    Bloggers around the world who have covered this story stand firm and WILL NOT take down their posts about this story:

    *United States: Dee and Deb at The Wartburg Watch; Julie at Spiritual Sounding Board; Brad Sargent/Futurist Guy, etc;
    *Canada (David Hayward/Naked Pastor, Bill Kinnon, and others)
    * Living Liminal in Australia.

    Dee at the Wartburg Watch has kept open the Go Fund Me “Encouragement Fund” for Julie McMahon. Please donate to the cause to help Julie with living and legal expenses. (It’s at the top of the page of The Wartburg Watch.)

    As for my part, I am filing a complaint with the Minnesota Supreme Court Chief Justice and asking her and The Court to mark Tony Jones as a Vexatious Litigant in that state (he has to get judicial approval to sue);
    asking The Court to take action against Tony Jones’ attorney’s (M. Sue Wilson’s) law license; and asking
    the Court to order an investigation into the family court judge who signed the Order (as it has been alleged that she is possibly the former law partner of M. Sue Wilson. If true, she had a legal obligation to recuse herself from this case. I believe that family court judge should face sanctions.)

  47. Michaela says:

    @Ducatihero,

    I second Lydia’s posts about your posts: They are too long and rambling. I don’t know what that’s about with you: a lack of writing skills, a lack of college education, immaturity/age, substances you’re on, emotional issues, culture you’re from, etc.

    Writing is like speaking. Would you take up somebody’s time with a long-winded speech? No. Or I would hope “no”. Public writing should be like public speaking: be sincere, be brief, be seated.

    If you haven’t already heard of it, I recommend that you buy a copy of Anne Lamott’s book Bird by Bird about writing. Also Stephen King’s book On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft. You can buy them used off amazon. If you have a good library, they may have them.

  48. Yasmin says:

    Ducatihero, you continue to ask what the good of all these posts is, after a long line of posts stating that victims must be heard, and that silencing them is wrong. Given all that, I really don’t understand your question about what good these posts do. We keep stressing what we hope to accomplish, yet you seem not to see that at all. The good is so obvious to us that we are pushed to assuming you disagree that giving Julie a voice IS good.

    Secondly, you keep mentioning “retribution,” as though we are seeking that of Tony. If you pay attention to what is happening, you’ll see that it is HE, not Julie or any of us, who is visiting retribution on Julie. We are only out to make sure that she is not silenced. Tony abused her, and continues to persecute her. If he does not wish that to be known, it is HIS responsibility not to do so. He is visiting retribution on himself by his actions, too. We are not doing anything at all in that respect. In fact, we wish it to stop, which would only help him in the long run. That he refuses to see that and continues to persecute Julie is HIS responsibility and there is nothing at all that we can do about that. You’ll have to take it up with him. Good luck with that.

    We are expressing our anger at Tony’s actions, which is entirely appropriate. We are not threatening violence, we are not speaking abusively, we are saying we are angry and stating our reasons for that anger. Certainly it is our Christian duty to forgive, but only if we are asked for forgiveness. Tony is unable to do so, due to his mental illness, but he IS able to stop the behavior that angers so many. Some of us may forgive him, but to forget what he has done and is doing is tantamount to endorsing it, and that is morally wrong on every level. He is causing harm to someone, refuses to stop, and keeps escalating the harm. Our anger at that is what compassionate Christians SHOULD feel, and we do. We are calling him to account, we are rebuking him as Scripture says we should. If and when he repents and asks Julie for forgiveness, it is up to her to decide whether to grant it (she has already forgiven some of those responsible for harmful actions against her with a grace I don’t know if I could match, so she has proven that she is willing to forgive).

    Tony himself has admitted to mental illness. Perhaps he hopes to use that as an excuse. As Michaela has pointed out, however, his mental illness is his responsibility to address. He is mistaken if he assumes that his actions will be ignored or excused because of it. He knows he needs help, and HE, not Julie, must suffer the consequences of refusing to get that help. He must also suffer the consequences of his continued attempts to silence Julie or anyone else. We will not be silenced, and he must suffer the spreading of this story as a direct consequence of HIS OWN actions. He’s no fool, he know that he could shut this whole thing down by acknowledging what he has done wrong, repenting of it, and making what restitution he can. He must suffer the consequences of refusing to do so.

    A note on warning others of his abusiveness and NPD: I wonder how his supporters feel about all this. Do they really feel safe from him? One little slip and he’ll turn on them as he has on Julie. I wonder how that works in his NPD mind, the conflict of having displeased him with the support he needs from them to keep the money rolling in. They’d better sing his praises loudly if they hope to keep him from turning on them if they do something he doesn’t like.

  49. Randy Buist says:

    You just can’t leave this alone can you David. You and your fifty bobbleheads continue to give your energy for your little reality that you create regardless of what the public believes. Just wondering: Have you ever met either the the people involved with this scandal, or is it just your interpretation of posts on the internet?

  50. Michaela says:

    All,

    Just a note that the State of Minnesota (where Julie and ex-husband live) has an Anti-SLAPP Statute.
    (SLAPP means: Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation.)

    Minnesota
    Anti-SLAPP Law
    MINN. STAT. §§ 554.01 – 554.05 (1994)
    Lawful conduct or speech that is genuinely aimed in whole, or in part, at procuring government action, unless constituting a tort or violation of a person’s constitutional rights, is immunized under the law.

    MINN. STAT. §554.04(2)(b) provides for a SLAPPBack cause of action. It provides that a court shall award actual damages, and may award punitive damages, if a SLAPP defendant shows that the SLAPP was brought to harass, inhibit the defendant’s public participation or exercise of constitutional rights, or otherwise wrongfully injure the defendant.

    http://www.anti-slapp.org/your-states-free-speech-protection/

    I am working with First Amendment groups to get that judge’s Order against Julie tossed out. I have also filed a complaint against Tony Jones’ attorney and the family court judge (is she the attorney’s former law partner and if so why didn’t she recuse herself from this case?).

  51. Michaela says:

    @Randy,

    So are you Tony Jones’ friend? http://subversiveinfluence.com/media/253984685-Statement-in-Support-of-Tony-Jones-Randy-Buist.pdf

    What is your definition of “a man”. No, dude, not “a male”. A MAN!

    A MAN doesn’t bail on his wife and young children. A MAN doesn’t go off to some university and leave his wife and the children behind. A MAN doesn’t ignore his wife’s concerns. A MAN doesn’t have sex with another man’s wife. A man doesn’t litigate the woman he married and whom bore his children.

    A MAN doesn’t threaten bloggers in three countries and have his attorney do same and his supposed friends.

    Remember what the Bible says: Bad company corrupts good morals.

    Randy, you need to keep better company. When you’ve grown up and manned-up, feel free to post again. As it is, you’re A DISGRACE to real MEN every where! Real men, including unbelievers, MAN UP! Try it some time!

    P.S. While you are thinking, tell us about your relationship with your father. How is it you got to this stage in life and don’t have AN EXAMPLE of a REAL MAN???!!

  52. Yasmin says:

    Of course he’s Tony’s friend, Michaela, no one else would claim that this issue is based merely on internet posts. It’s possible (but not at all certain) that he’s an abuser himself, since such people do support one another.

    Randy, there is no part of your post that is correct, not one, but you already know that. You are merely attempting to deny an abuse victim the right to tell her story and to warn others about the abuser. You already know how inexcusable that is, and that you should be truly ashamed of yourself, so I recommend you do so. It will help you to “man up” as Michaela so rightly suggests.

    (I just LOVE the bit about ” your little reality that you create regardless of what the public believes.” If the public believes Tony to be innocent, it’s only because they are not aware of the facts. People also believed that the sun orbited the Earth, until they had the facts. Too funny to insist that ignorant public opinion has any bearing on reality at all, or even negates it, but what else can you resort to, when the facts don’t support you?)

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