what the door to ministry looks like for most women

"The Door to Ministry" cartoon by nakedpastor David Hayward

“The Door to Ministry” cartoon by nakedpastor David Hayward

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19 Responses

  1. terri jo says:

    Yup, and today is a good day for me to ‘Let it be’. So all cracks from the Peanut Gallery will wait for another day. Some days are like that. Thank you David for your creativity

  2. Brigitte says:

    I’m waiting to make a Skype call. It does not seem to be happening.

    First, the penis seems a little long. It might also be wishful thinking for some men. — Or what about the transgendered without a penis. Where does it leave him or her? –That’s my first thought.

    Or, are we envious of being ministers or do we have penis-envy? (I don’t know about others here, but, personally speaking, I have neither envy of ministry nor penis. I have no idea how Freud came up with that one.)

    But really, what is ministry?

    Are we talking about the pastoral ministry that proclaims the gospel and forgives sins in the stead of Christ? Most of North Americans don’t even believe in the keeping or forgiving of sins. In light of that what is ministry? Are we talking about running coffee-houses, making sanitary napkins for the third world women, looking after orphans and widows–all of them laudatory efforts? — Nobody is keeping women out of any of these. Are we talking about being political activism, soft-hearted liberalism, etc.–nobody is keeping women out of that.

    What exactly is it that some women want? Is it somewhat ironic like with the question about Easter? What is it you are denying people when you don’t want to celebrate Easter with ministers who don’t believe the witness of the Bible?

    What is it that women can’t get into that they don’t actually believe in? They insist on redefining the central part, as it has been traditionally held, and then they are upset that those with a narrower definition can’t go along with it.

    There are so many questions like that nowadays. If women seek to “rehabilitate” the word “slut”, and sex is ok when non-attached, what is the meaning of consent? You consent to being a rodent, seeking pleasure at the end of the maze?

    I have talked with several women-“ministers”, mostly from the Canadian United Church. They have not believed anything about Jesus, sin and forgiveness, generally speaking. When you say that you believe this and that from the Bible, they have a hissy-fit (generally speaking). So what is their “ministry”? If they are trying to be nice and inclusive and build community, providing practical help, which is great, then that is more like the traditional diaconate.

    (I am giving up on Skype call. You are rid of me…)

  3. David says:

    I’m not sure what you mean by this skype call. I’m on vacation anyway.

  4. Karen Pryznyk says:

    Yes, that is true but I hope the light that is coming through the keyhole in your cartoon is a sign of hope. Times are changing even in the evangelical church. Our Baptist denomination ordains women for all positions including Senior Pastor. I wish I could talk to Paul and find out what he really meant by his “women must not teach men” teaching. It, or our interpretation of it, has done a lot of harm, cut the number of potential ministers in the church in half and has been applied unequally depending on the need for ministers – e.g. foreign missions.

  5. Brigitte says:

    NP, I am just thinking out loud about being on or off the computer, sorry.

    Baptists, also, don’t believe receiving forgiveness from a “minister”, as far as I know.

  6. Brigitte says:

    The one who makes the decision to forgive or retain your sin, as mandated by Christ himself, is the one who has authority over you, as called by the congregation. He is the one who “teaches” you about your life and your God. Women do this sort of thing for little boys, but when they grow up they tend not to like being reigned in like that. And is that what women are really seeking, to teach, admonish and manage men? I venture that really they veer to the caring, sharing, organizing side.

    A lot of grown men could use role models, coaching, and encouraging here, restraining there, helping them to attain appropriate leadership.

  7. Caryn LeMur says:

    Brigitte: are you saying that, in your opinion (or in the opinion of your denom), that the minister makes some sort of decision to forgive or retain a person’s sin?

  8. Brigitte says:

    Yes, as a servant of the word.

  9. Brigitte says:

    22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23″If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
    Cross References
    Matthew 16:19
    I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

    Matthew 18:18
    “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

    John 20:22
    And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 5:4
    So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present,

    THE THIRD ARTICLE
    (Sanctification)

    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

    What does this mean?

    I believe that I cannot by my own thinking or choosing believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to him.

    But the Holy Spirit has called me by the gospel, enlightened me with his gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith. In the same way he calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith.

    In this Christian Church he daily and fully forgives all sins to me and all believers.

    On the Last Day he will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ. This is most certainly true.

  10. Caryn LeMur says:

    So, Brigitte. Are you then an attender of daily mass? Or, is the weekly mass sufficient for your minister to impart forgiveness to you?

  11. Brigitte says:

    We attend the Lord’s supper as often as it is offered, which in our congregations is about twice a month. It is only one way in which grace is communicated. The more the merrier.

    Does that answer your questions somehow?

    If find, ironically, that only when I come to receive reconciliation, it is that I realize that I am indeed a sinner. Most of the time I go around thinking others are the sinners. Somehow it becomes clear when the solution is at hand. Strange.

  12. terri jo says:

    I recently learned that sin means “missing the mark”. I was hard on myself, often still am, judging myself for losing my temper, sneaking a cigarette, overeating, telling a white lie….. A deadly perception of having to be sinless, never ‘missing the mark’. Impossible, absolutely impossible. And I believed all sin was the same. But it is not. Having been raped and beaten by different perpetrators throughout my life, there are obvious different degrees of sin/missing the mark. We all miss the mark, and also I am blessed to have a solution to regain my spiritual focus.

  13. Caryn LeMur says:

    Thank you for the answer, Brigitte. So, I guess it is twice a month at mass, your priest forgives your sins? I am understanding your religion correctly?

  14. Brigitte says:

    We have confession and absolution at every service before we begin. You can also see the Pastor privately for confession and absolution. In essence, you could also see a brother or sister, any time.

    There is a story told about two Christians out alone in a boat, maybe there was a shipwreck… Each could absolve the other. In this sort of case, a woman would do it, too, like an emergency baptism. There are different sort of circumstances. However, in the case, of the formally organized, local congregation, the congregation has a properly called person to administer such holy acts.

  15. Brigitte says:

    Also, when we say “in the church we have daily forgiveness”, this does not have to mean in the building or in the formal setting. It could be in the family, which really is the basis of Christian life. Hence, here, too, it is nice (not to say “very important”) if the father does not shirk his responsibility to teach his children. But if he won’t, then obviously the mother does it by herself. Many studies, however, confirm, that this latter scenario is not as effective. Where the parents are united in the understanding and effort, we have the best situation for spiritual growth and stability.

  16. Brigitte says:

    In our case, we adopted children, but the birthparents were always involved. They have come to the baptisms, confirmations, weddings, and now the baptisms of the grandchildren. My grand daughter has 5 grandmothers, plus innumerable great-grandmothers. Soon we will attend a wedding together in the birthfamily. All this, is a kind of church, too. We bear each other, celebrate with each other, and raise children together… forgive each other.

  17. Caryn LeMur says:

    Brigitte: thank you for your answer. I had assumed ‘mass’ and ‘priest’; however, your wording points to Lutheran – am I correct? So, I think I am following your points better now.

    I am glad you are enjoying your religion.

    On the other hand, I tend much more towards Matthew, Mark, and Luke’s gospels as most accurate of the life of Jesus. I tend to reject the gospel according to John, especially the quotes of Jesus during the last supper/ in the upper room.

    You are probably already aware of the arguments for/against the Gospel of John – so, I won’t go into them here. If you wish, you can always search out the ‘authorship of Gospel of John’ on the Internet.

    So glad your family experience is ‘a kind of church, too.’ Sounds excellent!

    Cheers! Caryn

  18. Brigitte says:

    Thanks Caryn. I don’t know how synoptic gospels vs. John fits here. John covers different ground, things the others are missing. There is really no those versus the other. And we see that the command to go bind and loose is communicated in Matthew, as well as John. So we should stick to the substance of what is being said to go do. If the program of the “church”, be it a large institution or a family marooned on a deserted island, or Christians hiding in the catocombs… is the forgiveness of sins (as was the business of the temple worship and arrangements), then we need to keep that focus. Yes, and then it becomes a joyful thing. Everything becomes colored by joy. Don’t you agree with any of that?

  19. Caryn LeMur says:

    Hi Brigitte:

    I do support and encourage your religion. Seriously, I am ok with it.

    For myself, I find that Jesus in the Synoptic Gospels taught direct access to the Father far more than the intermediary approach.

    The purpose of the church, to me, is community. Given that most pastors are not trained in how to foster ‘community in diversity’, most churches fail in that arena… and can only be a ‘community’ to extremely like-minded people.

    I like profound diversity – in opinion, doctrine, text interpretation (hermeneutics).

    However… A wonderful gay married friend of mine converted from Baptist to Catholic. He is the son of a preacher. He greatly enjoys the concept of an intermediary between him and God. I think he is a marvelous man, and excellent computer scientist/manager.

    My friend’s joy helped me to see that some people will thrive in churches that believe they have the keys, especially the key to forgiveness.

    I simply don’t thrive in those types of communities.

    So, I will enjoy your postings – – though I will probably post quite a different view.

    Cheers! Caryn 🙂

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