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30 Responses

  1. Brigitte says:

    Do not dehumanize, as you do not want to be dehumanized. You can call “it” what you want, human rights, women’s rights, a blob of tissue, health care… a baby is still a baby, and everybody knows it. You can posture however you like, sweet and prim, respectable, screaming obscenities, posing nude or near nude, celebrity or obscure–you are alive, and you can protest–AND a Baby is still a Baby, and its body belongs to the baby; it is not your body. It is just a fact of life and biology. It just is. It just, simply, is. The child is precious, just as you are precious. The child is made in God’s image, just as you are. From there we derive human rights.

  2. Brigitte says:

    This is what happens to a conservative woman reporter at the Women’s March, in my town.

  3. Shazza tha dazzla says:

    Great cartoon David! It’s about time the almost 51% of the world’s population – women – had 51% of the resources and power to match. Bravo to the women and men who are trying to make that point.

    If you had really thought about reducing abortions Brigitte, you’d be cheering for women to have more say and more power. Because there are REASONS that pregnant women seek abortions and they include the lack of job security, the lack of opportunities for education, the high cost of raising children, the lack of funding and resources, the family rejection and social shaming, the shaming by the churches, the lack of responsibility and rejection by the male partner to support his own progeny – to name just a few of the complications that women with children face. Sole supporting mothers with children are the poorest in our society. They make up a large percentage of the homeless – live in cars with their children. Judged by society. Yet THEY are the ones who don’t give up on their children!!! The parents and partners of the pregnant women are most often the ones pushing for the abortions!!! Give women more power. More opportunities. More respect. More resources and hope? You’ll reduce the need for abortion.

    If you really believe children are precious, then why aren’t you shouting for the rights of the ones who give birth to them and raise them? I’m a grandmother, and I know I have been lied to by those in power -parents, politicians, church leaders, doctors, the legal system. I was trained to buy into my own subjugation – how else can you control nearly 51% of the population while feathering your own very comfortable nest? Well no more. Praise God young women are learning there’s a better way! That the ways of the bible were fine in their time, but I Cor 7:21 suggests SLAVES can take hold of their freedom if it is given them. HOW MUCH MORE should women in that case? There’s a wave happening and it’s not before time! The babies will benefit too. I don’t believe it’s either/or when it’s women being given resources and respect.

  4. Brigitte… you can always always always find an exception to the rule. This doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

    Thanks Shazza.. Well said.

  5. Brigitte says:

    Yes, Shazza, I obviously have my head completely in the sand.

  6. Caryn LeMur says:

    Brigitte: within your viewpoint, or within your orthodoxy, when is an abortion correct and proper? or allowable?

    And, by what scriptures do you make that determination?

  7. Shazza tha dazzla says:

    I’m so glad you’re able to admit it. It took me most of my life to admit that. I used to say the same things you do. Thank God he finally got me beyond those narrow arguments.

  8. Brigitte says:

    Caryn, as Shazza and others have pointed out, and also in my bigoted narrow-minded, head in the sand opinion (actually not true, but rather in my experience as crisis pregancy counsellor), the abortion is very often a convenience for the male involved, or had based on pressure from men and parents. If the woman had sufficient support, and many “orthodox” Christians are involved in making such support available where it is not offered by the man involved or parents, etc.

    It bothered me a lot recently, too, Caryn, that in reading a link you provided not very long ago, that the writer of a very strident article argued for men to be taught that they are not needing to take “responsiblity”, but should only measure themselves on their “kindness.” This must in some circles be understood to be the putting down of the “patriarchy”. The fact, however is, that when a woman is pregnant, there is a father somewhere, and yes, we need from him some responsiblity. Responsiblity is exactly what is “kind” here. Offering to drive the woman to the abortion clinic is not the “kindness” that is wanted. It is the cheapest and easiest thing, and it is not “love” and it is not “kindness”, just as much as abortion is not “health care”, or something we need to “celebrate”.

    The other thing that is just so incredibly irksome and embarrassing is the so-called celebrities inserting themselves in these debates, and sad to say in the most idiotic ways. The stuff that has played for all of us to watch is just hair-raisingly stupid, and many have said that this is to stand for “woman-power” is just, as I said, embarrassing for women. So is the whole marching around as vaginas, and the putting down of all who don’t agree with them. And so on. It’s a sad spectacle, in those respects.

  9. Caryn LeMur says:

    Brigitte: the core of the link was simply this: “Nevertheless, I ask you to recognize that it [abortion] is the selfish choice, and that demanding the availability and legality of that choice is rooted in selfishness—in the desire to be able to prioritize your interests above another’s life if and when the time comes. ”

    It is sad that the author cannot even give weight to all the other reasons or motives.

    So long as the only reason/motive for an abortion is ‘selfishness’, the important conversations that Shazza mentioned shall continue to be overlooked and avoided.

    I will use a negative analogy: car accidents.

    So long as we say, “All car accidents are traced back to selfishness – a need for inordinate speed for the road conditions”, then it follows that we will never discuss the need for salt on the roads, adequate lights at 4 way intersections, minimal requirements for tire tread depth, national standards for tire width/contact to the road depending on the vehicles total weight, and so forth.

    There are many causes/motives for an auto accident.

    We that are involved with the Bible should have all the conversations. We should not retreat to a single cause over and over again.

  10. Caryn LeMur says:

    Brigitte: I see that you wish to avoid using the Bible’s verses as support for your opinion.

    I understand.

    I consider our Bible’s treatment of a human-caused miscarriage: ““If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [has a miscarriage] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows.”

    The Bible does not treat this abortion as murder, nor as manslaughter.

    Thus, there is a debate among Bible-based Christians concerning ‘when’ does an abortion qualify as murder of a child, or not.

    Abortion is always the taking of human life – because the unborn is not a dog, cat, or vegetable – the unborn is always human. However, the Bible does not support that abortion is the murder of a human soul.

    God is always involved in the zygote – forming the child within the womb. Nonetheless, this concept does not require God to give the zygote a human soul on day 1.

    Most of the Christians I know, concede that medical advances have shown that there is survivability of a premature child with medical intervention. Therefore, some of my Christian friends have come to believe that an abortion is ‘murder’ during the last trimester.

    The concept that a human soul is imparted to the zygote on day 1 is simply not Biblically supported.

    I do agree that our conservative brothers and sisters in Christ wish to ‘err on the side of life’, and thus, they guess that the zygote is a human soul on day 1 or 2. But… this is a guess.

  11. Brigitte says:

    Caryn, the moment we speak about parenthood, we are not on a “philosophical journey”.

  12. Caryn LeMur says:

    Brigitte: law is derived from philosophy. The concept of right vs wrong is derived from philosophy.

    Even your and my view that the Bible has merit beyond being a historical document is derived from our philosophy.

    Therefore, good parenting (vs bad parenting), legal parenting (vs criminal acts by parents), and Biblical parenting (vs non-Biblical parenting) are all derived from philosophy.

    Your first post was an attempt at overwhelming the reader with emotional statements… and no support.

    Your other post was an attempt at guilting the reader (woe is me – I am accused of having my head in the sand – so please pay attention to what I write).

    You need to rise up and discuss the subject. Which, originally, was a praise to marching women asserting multiple statements to President Trump. You introduced the subject of pro-abortion. Shazza replied to that subject; so have I.

    Please realize that attempting to emotionally overwhelm the readers is what many institutional churches do. Manipulating by guilt is also what many institutional churches do.

    David has said many times that he will continue to attack the institutional church for their repetitive bullying.

    You are providing proof of David’s position – the church trains its people to bully (emotionally overwhelm, and then run away from the discussion), and not engage in discussion with reason and support.

    Don’t run. Rethink. Post. Show to us the orthodox Lutheran position can discuss and support its position, even if it is from a historical basis of raising more children than Protestants during times of religious strife.

    And yes, we will disagree. However, we can at least show that discussions are possible between the atheist, theist, orthodox, mainstream, liberal, and non-denominational.

  13. Brigitte says:

    Caryn, this may give you PTS, I am sorry, but I am not speaking to you as anyone with a label. I am speaking to you as a human being, as a woman, one with all the parts. Which is, I know, not always ok to say, although it seemed to be ok for all the women at the women’s march to say, and parade dressed up as women parts. So whatever gives. Women have a thing with fertility, as it is they, who get pregnant and give birth to human babies. So most women are always dealing with their cycles, their menses, their iron deficiency, their birth control, their trying to get pregnant and their not trying to get pregnant. And when they have a baby, they nurse, and so on. A woman’s body is like that. And a woman’s life is, for better or for worse, deeply connected to fertility and child bearing.

    So, as a woman myself, with all the parts, as I mentioned, I have had my share of much of the above mentioned. I have counted days, and measured temperature, had sex with condoms, taken pregnancy tests and battled the emotional cycle of estrogen and progesterone and of the fertility roller-coaster. I just want you to know, when the menses do not come, and when the test is positive, there IS a baby on its way. There is the full elation, or the full heartbreak, or the full depression. I have also administered pregnancy tests, and have them come back positive and had the women cry on my shoulders, or more even: into my lap, as they can be very broken and fearful. A pregnancy test is either positive or negative. The mental and emotional understanding of the circumstance is immediate and fully formed. What may change is that there are indeed nine months of pregnancy and a family or single woman has lots of time to figure out how to cope or get ready. What does not change is that a negative test is negative and a positive test is positive. The raw emotion and the raw understanding of the facts of life and the coming baby is not impacted “by law”. When the boyfriend wants to “get rid of it”, we sure know that it is not “it”.

  14. Caryn LeMur says:

    Thank you, Brigitte, for offering your experience.

    And, you draw from your experience that the hormones within a pregnant woman prove that the unborn is a child with a soul.

    Which is an interesting leap of logic.

    A scientist would say that the hormones prove the female is pregnant. Thus, we disagree.

    Your experience has not answered the question of when is a unborn human being a ‘living soul’? Which is quite all right, since the Bible gives a question mark to that answer.

    So, when is an abortion, within your orthodoxy, the sinless path for a woman to take?

  15. Brigitte says:

    At what point would it have been “sinless” for your mother to abort you? For your father not to want you?

  16. Caryn LeMur says:

    Brigitte: a good dodge.

    That said, in my mind, abortion is certainly allowed following a rape.

    Within the conservative Christian movement, if my life had been due to rape, and I had been aborted, I would therefore be suddenly ‘born’ into heaven.

    If heaven is real, then abortion is a good choice for the peace of mind given to my mother and father.

    Now, don’t dodge. When is abortion acceptable to your view, or to your orthodoxy?

  17. Brigitte says:

    You are the one dodging, mixing casuistry and mythology to have something come out “sinless”, to your own liking.

  18. Is there such a thing as a sinless abortion Brigitte?

  19. Brigitte says:

    Is there such a thing as a sinful abortion? Is there such a thing as sin?

  20. Caryn LeMur says:

    Brigitte… I did not think your orthodoxy determined that heaven was only a myth.

    I believe in a heaven, as it is written by Paul the Apostle, ‘to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (Jesus)’.

    Well… ignoring the concept of heaven, at the moment… and pressing forward.

    Brigitte: the reason I write here on NP is to prove to the readers that people with divergent opinions and philosophies can share their thoughts, their reasoning, their openness to discussion… and thus reveal what their philosophical training has produced within them.

    Your orthodox Lutheran mindset is producing circular reasoning and dodges within you. You are now counter-attacking with reflective phrases:

    – Me: “Hi, I am Caryn. I feel great today.”

    – You: “Is there such a thing as ‘feeling’ or ‘today’?”

    No counter-attack was needed. You could simply state, “Caryn, within Orthodox Lutheranism, even life produced by rape is considered sacred.” or anything similar. Or you could have replied with, “Speaking only for myself, and not the Lutheranism I was raised within, I now lean towards this………”

    This is your chance to show the life, the joy, the laughter, or the grief, that your Orthodox Lutheranism has produced within you.

    Try again. Try to rejoin the discussion.

    You can do this.

  21. Brigitte says:

    I told you already, that I am speaking as a human being, and specifically as a woman. But it seems to me that you are always looking for a label. And you have not been attacked. I am also asking fundamental questions and you do not want to answer. That is not an attack. So, yes, the admonitions to discuss this way, or that way, or whatever way… always seem hollow, at best.

  22. Caryn LeMur says:

    Sigh…ok, Brigitte. I will continue to answer your questions for a time.

    Yes, there is sin, in my opinion. And yes, there is a heaven.

    Your turn.

  23. Brigitte says:

    First, let’s note the sigh. Why sigh? Second if there is sin and there is heaven, it could be, conceivably, sin or illegality in dispatching someone to heaven. Conceivably there could be greater sin in dispatching the innocent.

    What God does with the stillborn, the miscarriage, the aborted… child, will be something we can’t know for certain, as we don’t have information or promise on that. Many a woman or parent is concerned about that. But we have to leave this out of view or calculation. Except we can say that God loves and loves to be merciful, and he has also heard your prayers for your child. In any case, this line of thinking cannot be a justifier for not caring for a pregnant woman and what is growing in her womb. Agreed?

  24. Caryn LeMur says:

    Brigitte: thank you for speaking clearly.

    We always care for every person, and especially when the one person is carrying another.

    On that we agree.

    And we do agree that there is greater and lesser sin.

    However, coming alongside a person is the Law of Christ. And, to come alongside of them and bear their overburden (Gal 6), means that we must have the full conversations mentioned by Shazza.

    I am pro-adoption, btw. However, I will be with my friends if they decide to abort. And being anti-abortion is not my focus, at all.

    And you are right, the Bible is very unclear concerning the sinfulness of abortion. I have had to make a hypothetical case in the extreme; you have had to use terms like ‘conceivable’, and compare ‘sin’ and ‘illegality’, and so forth.

    Thank you for your honesty, and for sharing your viewpoint.

  25. Brigitte says:

    It looks like you have landed yourself in the spot where you will lovingly and boldly support a woman by accompanying her to the abortuary.

  26. me says:

    Brigitte Rocks!

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