Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?

Over the past seven years, I’ve compiled research or archive sites on half a dozen situations involving spiritual abuse – some of them also involving allegations of criminal acts and/or civil liability, each having different thresholds of evidence for conviction. So I’ve been very concerned about issues of fact-finding, evidence, analysis, and reasoned interpretation instead of just speculation.

In terms of issues of evidence, assuming Julie has documents for various things she has contended (and at various points, she’s indicated that she indeed does), then I’m relatively inclined to find her side of the situation explored on this thread to have a lot of primary-source evidence toward finding facts and interpreting the truth. As I mentioned in one of my earliest comments here, I tracked this in late 2009/early 2010 and commented then on a few blogs. Tony Jones has had a lot of opportunities then and since to be specific in responding to (what I see as) legitimate questions – as he was and is a public figure – but rarely has done so online, at least to my knowledge. Help me out with links if you know of any.

As Matt Scott notes, Julie has not posted her documents. But she’s made it clear that she has them and refers to them. They look to be mostly emails, and papers, or otherwise are the kinds of things that are verifiable by online research, such as the number of legal motions she has had to contend with. Also, if I remember right, Julie has mentioned recently forwarding some evidences to many of the people she wants apologies from, and/or that she previously offered to share her documentation with them, and generally has been rebuffed.

Anyway, of the first 574 comments on this thread, Julie posted 85 of them — 15%. This is her sharing her account of what has happened, but there is more here than mere narratives. When we read all of her comments (and I did a second reading of them this evening), we find her referencing very specific pieces of documentary evidence. She also mentions particular people who can supply eye-witness testimony to certain events or issues. Those are all primary sources. And then several people have supplied their stories of similar occurrences within Emergent circles, which are secondary sources to show potential problem patterns.

Granted, this is nowhere near the scale of Mars Hill issues (for which I blogged an extensive Research Guide in recent weeks), or number of people affected.

But consider Julie’s comments again for what they report about pieces of evidence she has, realizing that some details on the same item of evidence is often scattered across multiple comments. At the bottom of this comment, I’ve pasted in some of those 85 links that I found had the most specific details or item listings.

Meanwhile, I tend to agree with Linda that what Julie has consistently been asking for are real apologies from principal people she contends harmed her in the overall situation. Not trials, not restitution, not mediation, etc. Who knows, Julie may choose a different direction if nothing happens along the lines of basic apologies.

But any larger and more formal process could actually get way more complicated in part because, as best I understand it, most of that core list of people she’s mentioned had at the time of the main events all kinds of “interlocking connections” via business companies, tax-exempt non-profit church(es), and a tax-exempt non-profit corporation. It isn’t simply that they were all friends as Emergent Village writers-speakers-leaders-mentors. So that brings potential regularly agency issues to bear (which is some of what Mars Hill could also end up dealing with), on top of the contentions of criminal actions and/or civil liability issues.

Confused? Uh-huh. Took me weeks to work through parallel issues of Mars Hill. And because there are some parallels, if you’re interested, check out this table of contents on the Research Guide, and especially the links to top legal/ethical problems of non-profits.

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2014/09/07/mark-driscoll-and-mars-hill-church-research-guide-part-2e/

So that’s my piece on evidences and processes. Here are some of the key evidence comments from Julie.

https://nakedpastor.ehermitsinc.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/#comment-118146 (Lists most of the main documents in evidence – emails, psychiatric evaluation report, MRI, discernment letter, etc.)

https://nakedpastor.ehermitsinc.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/#comment-118319 (Specifics related to Tony having her arrested for violation of the Order for Protection not to contact him by cell phone.)

https://nakedpastor.ehermitsinc.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/#comment-123865 (Her psych evaluation she suffered “acute distress.”)

https://nakedpastor.ehermitsinc.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/#comment-124040 (She has had only 6 months without litigation ongoing since 2008.)

https://nakedpastor.ehermitsinc.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/#comment-124145 (Julie and the kids live below the poverty line. At one point Tony owed over $50,000 in child support.)

https://nakedpastor.ehermitsinc.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/#comment-125390 (Julie’s father spent over $500,000 to fight the custody battles and motions by Tony to reduce his support.)

@Mike – Given your lack of understanding re blogging ethics, I don’t expect you to get this but you just committed libel. I wasted too much energy in the past dealing with people who hurled crapola like this at me for me to go down that path again. With every post, you just dig your hole a bit deeper – please for your sake, stop.

For the rest of the group, for a few brief years, Mike and I connected via one community and that the Ooze – after our falling out, I remained in contact with Spencer and was asked to speak at the last Soularize. Unfortunately, I was unable to raise the money to attend. So much for being ostracized. There are no other communities where we both intersected though we did have a # of mutual acquaintances given at the time we both played in the more progressive sphere of Xnity. IOW, ignore the man behind the curtain who is creating some version of Oz that bears no resemblance to reality. As I have said repeatedly, when one is being gaslight to high heavens, one can go ballistic from the stress and trauma – I’ve reached out to everyone I might have offended and with the notable of those connected to the US emergent brand, we made amends.

Matt – see David Hayward’s earlier post re those who have emailed him – this convo is FAR greater than simply 3 women getting PO’d. And yes, Julie has the evidence and has indicated repeatedly a willingness to share this info upon request.

I’m dubious about wading into this conversation, but I’ll do so anyway in the hopes that there are open minds on both sides.

@Linda- Unlike the Driscoll situation, in which there is a vast amount of evidence regarding the abuses perpetrated, this situation has Julie making some pretty stark claims against various leaders of the ECM. Julie is demanding apologies and has, to my knowledge, made no information other than her claims public. I believe she commented earlier that she would provide David with evidence of her claims, but I have not seen David confirm any aspects of her statements.

If this is a space for Julie (and Becky and Mojojules) to speak about how she was treated, as David claims in an earlier comment, then that is one thing. If there is anything I can garner from reading all these comments, it’s the Julie hasn’t felt heard in several years, and this space has been great in that respect. To demand full mea culpa from all of the mentioned parties, however, is another thing entirely. From my read of Brian’s last comment, he admitted that some things were not handled as well as they could have been, but his interpretation of the evidence available does not add up to the claims posited by Julie. That seems fairly reasonable to me, an outsider.*

*I was a fringe character in the ECM from 2008 – ~2011 as an incredibly minor blogger and a member of a local cohort

Mike,
Having read all of Julie’s posts, I do not see her asking for a trial for Tony, for him to be thrown under the bus, for disciplinary action, or for a reconciliation process. She very clearly has asked for apologies from the discernment team who she felt contributed to the painful circumstances of the divorce. It is an interesting parallel to the Mars Hill situation that rather than simply apologize, the remaining board continues to create processes to impose on those who are asking them to engage in a transparent conversation.

Hi Julie – hearing that you don’t trust me as far as you can throw me, I feel two things. The first is sadness. The second is respect. I’m not asking you to trust me; trust or the lack thereof is your prerogative. I mean what I say about walking the line – totally giving you the benefit of the doubt and the right to share your story, and considering Tony innocent ‘till he’s proven guilty in…I don’t know what. A court of law, or a court of mutually respected, or respectively-chosen, peers. My heart hurts for all parties concerned, and I hope you each find the exoneration and/or support you need. I’m open to anything you have to say offline.

As for me, I stand by what I wrote. And, despite relational and/or professional ties with all parties concerned, as of 3Q 2014 my income is 0% dependent on either Emergence or the SBNR crowd. Emergence Christianity and TLS could go away tomorrow – or this afternoon – and my livelihood would be 0% effected. So for any casting aspersions based on guilt-by-association, know that I’ve been in touch with none of the Big, Bad Stakeholders – every perception I have is mine and mine alone.

@ Becky – you’re on deadline, I’m busy; I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree, yeah? I’ve felt bad through the years as I’ve felt you’ve had some truly valuable – even prophetic – things to say, not to mention your gifted satire. It’s too bad that you’ve forwarded emails – and photos – held to be confidential, ruining lives and reputations all in the name of “concern” – and burned bridges with no fewer than four communities I’ve witnessed you attach yourself to, only to see you (and them) become disillusioned. Things could have been conducted better by all parties concerned, and I’m sorry that things have turned out the way they have.