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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1079 comments
@Holly To Steve’s credit, he is the only US emergent figure who apologized to me for spreading rumors I’m batshit via the Emergent Village network. However, he has yet to speak publicly even though these very public rumors were spread online during the time he was the webmaster of the EV network. As these battles were public and not private, I issued a public apology via the Sojourners God’s Politics blog in 2010 (can’t find the link as they revamped the site) and in my book Jesus Died For This? (Also I tried to meet with a few folks privately in person when they came to NYC with no success.)
I’ve lost track of the # of people I’ve met in professional settings who have said words to the effect or “You’re not crazy like the emergent boys said you were.” Now that I’m not in the Xn industrial complex world, I don’t give a rat’s ass what any professional Christian thinks. But just because the gaslighting pushed me out of the toxic cesspool that’s become Xn publishing and into some really kick ass work doesn’t justify how these boys behave – and again, this isn’t about me — there’s a host of others but it’s up to them to do what Julie is doing and tell their stories. Preach it sisters (and a few brothers who got slammed as well) … :)
In a similar vein, I’ve heard countless times that Doug directed Steve to scrub the website of any mention of Courtney Perry (and have seen screen grabs that prove said scrubbing) post-Christianity 21. If Steve did not do this, then it would behove him to come clean because Doug is accusing him of something pretty serious here. If he did do this, then fess up and explain what was really going on behind the scenes. Julie has the right to know what was done to discredit her and how the truth was obfuscated for years.
Sorry but Steve was a major player here …
Holly, I know it’s slightly impolite, but how do you make your money?
How do you hope to make your money?
http://hollyroach.com/greenfilm/ Film Consulting?
http://hollyroach.com/career/workshops/ Workshops?
Book sales?
Paid ministry?
How many of these depend on the success and reputation of those around you?
Can you see the privilege and power and connections?
Another http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2010/04/06/is-sojourners-for-straights-only/ snippet from Tony’s blog:
“When I’m asked — as I often am — why the EC is so white, I have a threefold answer:
1. Five years ago everyone was saying that we were too male, but people aren’t saying that anymore because women are now leading the movement. So be patient.
2. There’s probably a lot more racial diversity in the movement than you think; you’d better look beyond the skin color of the best-selling authors to make your assessment.
3. The EC is not an evangelistic movement. I don’t mean that in reference to the gospel, but to the movement itself. The EC is not about growing the EC. It’s about catalyzing an ecclesial and theological conversation and about building a network of friendship in which these conversations can safely take place."
I wouldn’t feel safe in a network with conversations like those described in these comments.
I wouldn’t feel safe in a network where male leaders were so dismissive of women (see earlier posts).
And it’s not sufficient to point away from the leaders and best-sellers – they are the ones with the social and financial power. (And what about LGBT people in the network?)
cute little side note to the Rod Dreher video with a very still legally married Tony…his mistress filmed it and giggles throughout…kinda cute. Cue cackle at 5 min 40 secs http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=rod+dreher+anf+toy+jones+videoandFORM=VIRE1#view=detailandmid=C0EA42AA93069E33CD36C0EA42AA93069E33CD36
Julie,
Your story is encouraging. I wish that there was a way for this entire thread to continue indefinitely. I’m worried that it’s not going to be easy for that to happen given that the comments section of blogs don’t scale up, in my experience, beyond a certain point before it becomes just plain difficult to keep up. But so far, that hasn’t happened, and I’m really glad.
There’s a couple of books I wanted to suggest to you. I just got them in the mail, but I am suggesting them nonetheless. They are both by Randi Krieger, the coauthor of STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS, which is a book about living with a significant other who has borderline personality disorder. You referenced several times NPD, and I don’t want to conflate the two, but I think the experiences of the spouse in both scenarios is similar enough that I’ll suggest the books to you anyway.
The first book is entitled SPLITTING: PROTECTING YOURSELF WHILE DIVORCING SOMEONE WITH BORDERLINE OR NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger. So actually this one is for NPD and BPD. So good call on my part. Anywhere http://www.amazon.com/Splitting-Protecting-Borderline-Narcissistic-Personality/dp/1608820254/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8andqid=1411526118andsr=8-1andkeywords=splitting+borderline+personality click here for the amazon link . Amazon sent me two copies of it and the next book for some reason, so if you want I can just send you my extra copies free of charge.
The second book is called THE ESSENTIAL FAMILY GUIDE TO BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER: NEW TOOLS AND TECHNIQUES TO STOP WALKING ON EGGSHELLS by Randi Kreger. That link is also http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Family-Borderline-Personality-Disorder/dp/1592853633/ref=la_B001JP2W0Q_1_2?s=booksandie=UTF8andqid=1411526190andsr=1-2 here .
The divorce book strikes me as one you would really find incredibly valuable, if you don’t already have it or have something like it. But, from the sound of things, it sounds like such a book would be coming to you at 75% of the way through this awful mess. But I’m partly just throwing these two out there to just say hey, and that I think you’re a survivor, and an inspiration, and I am really sorry that you had to go through the ringer like this for so long, and that your kids had to too. I bet it’s difficult to even rank the worst parts of what this has been like for you since it’s like choosing between which is worse, getting run over or getting scalded with hot water — they both are so extreme and horrific it’s not even worth ranking. But one of the things that I wanted to express compassion towards you over is with regards to the gas lighting and the social alienation that you no doubt experienced. I suspect that there for a long period of time, maybe? , you basically were standing in front of everyone and asking for help and for whatever reason at best no one really could or would help, and at worst, people actually threw you under the bus. I bet you must’ve nearly lost it. I want to say “I can’t imagine it”, but honestly, I can imagine it. And I just wanted to say to you I can imagine it, it’s difficult to imagine, and I am wishing you a sound sleep tonight and tomorrow, and a smile on your face when you awake each morning.
Have you ever read this poem by Stevie Smith entitled "http://www.poetryfoundation.org/learning/poem/175778 Not Waving but Drowning "? You should read it aloud in a quiet room, just yourself in your peaceful quiet, and listen to it. I bet, like me, you hear your past in it. I hope for your sake, and my sake, that it is the past. Thank you for your refusal to die or regress. The decision to live in the midst of great suffering and misunderstanding is an act of source bold faith that we are all blessed to hear tales about it. Julie McMahon – she refused to die, refused to lie, and refused to throw away this life she had been given. If you can do that, we all can do that. I wish you the best next part of your life. It will end and when it does, the glory of the things that come next will make the trashiness of what happened with your husband be insignificant by comparison. Stay strong and hang in there girl.
ben