Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?

Chris Hill, you have my sympathy and respect. You recognize yourself as a potential abuser, and do your best not to act on that. You have my respect because you DO fight it, and my sympathy because it cannot be easy.

Julie, you, too, have my sympathy and support. As both of you have pointed out, active abusers must always live with what they are, and that can be very ugly. They surround themselves with enablers who are as repellent as they themselves are, and that is the only support or company they ever get to keep. I have been sickened to read what was done to you, and pray for your complete peace and healing.

I find the inability of NPD victims to see how very BAD it makes them look not to apologize to be curious. They are not stupid, they are fully aware of the contempt in which such people are held, yet that is their chosen path. They don’t even seem to get it that a false apology will raise them tremendously in the eyes of others, as long as they convince those others that the apology is real. I don’t understand how they see things that they cannot understand how contemptible they look when they refuse to apologize. It’s a bit psychotic, a bit out of touch with reality, and it ALWAYS fails them.

I’ll be praying for you, Julie, and for your children. I will try very hard to be more Christlike and pray for the Notorious Six as well, but I’ll be gritting my teeth as I do so. I’d much rather pray for them to learn their lessons painfully, but I’m doing the best I can.

Chris Hill, keep up the good work. I’ll be praying for your strength to keep fighting what is the really good fight indeed!

Ya lots of people have been asking for the like/dislike button so… there you go :)

Whoa! Just noticed the addition of the “Likes” and “Dislikes” buttons. Not what I came back to post about, but that’s pretty cool.

I did a bit of thinking about Julie’s situation, Mars Hill, and tangentially not related to this thread in any way Sam Harris (noted atheist), whose speaking gig at my church next week was cancelled due to serious death threats. My question is this: what would it take for the American church at large (American church in this case meaning mainline denominations, other individual sects like the Mennonites with their huge variety of conservative to liberal congregations, nondenominational churches of all sizes mega and not, etc.) to make a concerted effort to call out abuse demonstrated by clergy in both church, public, and private settings? Is it simply a lack of seeing certain behaviors as abusive? Is it also an underlying unwillingness to examine current behaviors or acknowledge past behaviors that are abusive or borderline? Is it also because some of these abusive behaviors also have deep roots in US culture to some extent because we expect to see said behaviors and it’s normalized consciously or subconsciously? The consequences are real—ranging from hurt feelings to ruined reputations, legal actions, and impacts on careers. I’m also concerned because I think that certain types of abusive behaviors are actually growing in encouragement and are attractive—Mars Hill didn’t gather a huge following because Driscoll was a warm, wonderful person. Even in the case where Sam’s speaking date was cancelled, the church itself didn’t strongly denounce the threats—even though the church clearly didn’t make the threats—it did speak disapprovingly and disappointingly of the threats. I just wonder why there is such institutional reluctance to address abuse and threats by American christians.

Mike Morrell refuses to apologize here publicly. He says it is “not appropriate.” Isn’t that what the above interlopers have said that this is not the appropriate venue? Trying to shame me and shut me up.

I cannot think of a more perfect place for apologies and healing than a Pastors blog…..MY pastor because I am now a part of the Lasting Supper community…a place for people who have been abused by the church and are victims of spiritual abuse. No more dodging it. It’s OVER. Come clean. Otherwise, do not call yourself a Christian. We are supposed be different. People of reconciliation. This matters. To me and to every victim of spiritual abuse by Pastors in a position of power and influence.

Doug Pagitt
Brad Cecil
Mark Scandrette
Steve Knight (deleted the EV website content)
Brian McLaren
Mike King
Danielle Shroyer
Mike Morrell (proliferated the Julie is “bat shit crazy” and Becky Garrison is “bat shit crazy” campaign)

You have all aided in this spiritual abuse that is now out here in the light of day. I am asking again and for a fourth time for a public apology. Maybe you were all bamboozled….if so….say it. But I cannot help think this was entirely driven by self interest. His pathology will not allow for any sort of remorse or apology. I understand that on a clinical level. What is your excuse?

“One more pressing thought…Julie, since you have lived with an extreme example of NPD, what is the answer? Is there a solution for this disorder?”

I am not Julie but have done a lot of research on this after dealing with narcissistic pastors and family members and trying to figure out what on earth was going on. How can deception, lying and evil be “good” in the Name of Jesus?

Among other resources, I ran across Sam Vaknin who admits to being a narcissist and has quite a bit of information you might find interesting. He is the author of Malignant Self Love. and has a channel on youtube. They are harder to detect than you might think——unless you live with one. They often target fair, just people they know will always question themselves out of a sense of conscience and wanting to be “fair”. They love those types. Easy to manipulate.

" Maybe I should rephrase; I’m sure there is therapy for a narcissist who wants to change, but it appears the problem lies with the ones who have no desire to change (which I’m guessing is part of the disease.)"

How do you teach someone to have a conscience? How do you teach empathy to an adult? The research I have read says this is formed early on but can also become ingrained when brought into certain movements as a youth where entitlement, because of a perceived superiority, is expected. An example of that would be an SS officer. Young pastor has that feel to it for me. Often they come with entitlement because of some “spiritual” superiority but act “humble” to gain street cred. Often they are different people when not in front a group speaking.

" I am TRULY wondering what type of communication would cause this type of person to do the LEAST amount of harm to others."

I have a friend who developed a technique for her tween and teen to use with their narcissistic father. It protects them from being used. Younger than that it is almost impossible and they need to be in therapy because it can become their normal. I am wary of mentioning it here. But it has worked well for them. And their father was extreme narcissistic on par with some of the things Julie has mentioned here. Bold liars and deceivers who are more often than not, believed. The key is to communicate as little as possible.

The key to adults communicating with a narcissistic sociopath is every word must be in writing —ONLY. Even then it is a nightmare.