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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1079 comments
David Anderson thank you for that and coupled with arrogance it can be a real train wreck. I asked what credentials Doug Pagitt had to diagnose me, and recommend I be hospitalized and he said, “We’re all Pastors….we just know.”
Pat Green you used the humble approach of knowing that you are not a “know it all” and referring someone sounds a lot more humane. Apparently, the Licensed Psychologist who assessed and diagnosed thoroughly was not as wise or as well trained in clinical mental health as Pastor Doug Pagitt.
@David Anderson,
Thank you for your insight. I was a minister for 15 years. In the last five I was in I realized how ill equipped I was for counseling. I took it upon myself to take a 50 hour crisis counseling course and get state certified. That made me feel more comfortable in dealing with an emergency and also gave me the tools to recognize when I was in over my head. I also ceased giving pre marital counseling and developed a relationship with an MSW who specialized in relationship issues for such as that. I also forged relationships with places that dealt with grief counseling, domestic violence and rape and other trauma. I became a referral source so that congregants could get the help they needed. That said, I shudder to think of the harm I inadvertently caused others in my arrogance and ignorance prior to that.
My wife discovered this post from a tweet last week and has been urging me to comment as it relates to one of my biggest pet peeves regarding unlicensed counselors.
I am a clinical psychologist who specializes in the treatment of individuals who have been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and other severe mental health disorders. Although I am semi-retired (limited practice hours) now, I’ve spent the better part of two decades doing neuropsychological assessments.
My experience has led me to readily agree with Jeff and Lainie’s suggestions that most ministers are not qualified to treat those involved in trauma. The longer I practice, the more damage I have seen such untrained “spiritual counselors” cause.
Typically I see ministers silence those in need of help by ignoring their issues or minimizing their stories with Bible verses and prayer requests. I was glad to at least hear this group of leaders took Julie’s account seriously enough to invest their time in a formal meeting and to attempt to connect her with professional services. But I DO hear Julie saying that the mental health options they presented to her made her feel uncomfortable and unsafe. This is where things seemed to go quickly down hill.
When I read that Julie was emailing others in search of help, it told me Julie had likely exhausted all her own sources of support. She probably felt powerless and forced into grasping at the off-chance hope that one of these acquaintances could intervene. The fact that she was feeling the need to cross normal social boundaries and reach out to strangers would have been seen by my colleagues and I as a cry for help. I am sorry the people who recognized this need were unable to help foster support that could benefit her at the time.
I hope one of the insights readers pick up is how important it is for situations like these to be referred to unbiased mental health professionals who have extensive trauma training. While professionals are no less challenged when sorting through the differing accounts from alienated spouses, they are at least trained to offer more support and TO AVOID HARM.
Although I could offer many thoughts on NPD etc. to help clarify some of the references here, I will just reiterate it is unlikely any outcome will produce 100% resolution or validation. I encourage her to continue to build support systems to move beyond this and cheer her on in her life post-divorce.
David Anderson
Thank you for allowing me to share my story here. Thank you for the support. A nice soul and others have messaged me with similar messages like this one of support. Thank you for listening. A person who has undergone junk like I have really just wants to be heard. I feel heard here and as a member of The Lasting Supper community.
I have been reading the comments on NakedPaster. Just want to say I admire your strength and courage in this saga! I can’t imagine all that you’ve been through. This blog has been eye opening. I have no experience with abuse, spiritual or otherwise and have had a happy marriage. But I am greatly interested and concerned for those who have been victimized. I just want to say how much I admire your spirit in being willing to apologize (for example to Brad Cecil) and adjust your understanding with new information. I pray that others will do the same for you.Peace and love. You are a survivor!
Lydia,
It’s truly bizarre: Jesus spent very little time caring about criticism or his “public image”, yet some of his shepherds appear to continually insulate themselves from anything that might harm their perceived moral credentials.
It’s almost as if there were two different religions being lived out here: one which demands moral perfection upfront; and another which requires humility to enter…