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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1080 comments
Intentionally or otherwise, Scott Jones, you are missing the point. This isn’t about Julie and Tony’s divorce. It is about the gaslighting of Julie by leaders in the EV movement to protect their movement and their, at that time, key leader.
Making it about the divorce is simply obfuscation.
I came across this feed today and was saddened. I’m sad because divorce ruins lives (I’m divorced, and re-married). I’m sad because we’re trying something that most of us don’t know in the court of public blogosphere opinion. I’m sad because Tony’s a friend, as is his lovely wife. I don’t know Tony’s ex-wife, but I’m saddened that she’s felt the pain divorce causes; I’m sad for the kids whose backstory is now part of the inter-public-social-frenemy-blogosphere-web. Some of this is of course inevitable in the time and place where we live.
[At this point I should say I think a lot of things that have been said about Tony are untrue and unfair. I don’t claim to know every detail of the story, but I know Tony and others involved pretty well. I’m pretty uncomfortable with some things that have been said, but that’s not what I want to talk about…]
I find Hemmingway’s prose rough sledding, and sometimes just oppressive (I have ADHD). But at other times he’s prophetic. The following passage is from Farewell to Arms:
“If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry.” (the only thing that makes this passage excusable, let alone bearable, is Deuteronomy 29:29.)
Because of the culture we live in we put people in the place where they can speak to trans-local communities. Mark and Tony are both in those positions (the fact that Mark has a bigger network right now than Tony doesn’t erase the fact that they share an office into which most of us implicitly push them). Tony wasn’t uncritical of Mark. He did pull a few punches.
Tony is a friend. He’s been a good one. Do we agree on everything?…No. Do we agree on more than he and Mark do?…Yes, probably so. I know him as someone who’s been faithful as a friend, brother and compassionate child of God.
Someone asked Calvin about Luther’s tendency to excess in matters theological (as compared to Calvin). Calvin’s response was akin to, “when God raised Luther up…we needed a trumpet!” God raises up strong voices and strong personalities in certain times in the church’s life to pave the way forward. But in God’s wisdom he makes them as broken as the rest of us. I’d like those of us on this feed to take something like the ice bucket challenge. Let’s challenge ourselves. Let’s take this to the sphere of real life. Let’s build relationships with the people involved where feasible, wise and practical. If we have relationships with folks mentioned already, let’s strengthen them. If folks involved are too removed from our the limits of our lives let’s move to the places where God has called us to be gracious witnesses in our spheres of influence. And above all let’s commit ourselves to prayer for families, faith, friends and foes in our fallen world which looks expectantly to redemption.
s
Brad, excellent analysis in your comment @ 5:41pm. David, kudos to you for allowing the conversation to continue without censorship.
Though a lot of church leaders would love for it to be otherwise, this is real communion and community with each other. Preachers love to paint it in a rosy light, but the reality is that real, heart-level communion and community isn’t always pretty. And we need to reclaim our right and ability to lament and grieve, to each other and to God. Perhaps some church leaders need to go back and re-read some Brueggemann, revitalize their sense of prophetic imagination, and realize that they are the Pharaoh that the people’s pain is being proclaimed to. And maybe read Richard Beck’s Unclean and The Slavery of Death after that.
And thanks to Bill for bringing this thread to my attention. I’ve been in a domineering spiritual abuse setting before, and it’s very helpful to me to be able to see these dynamics at a distance, and try to improve my own reactions when placed in closer proximity to such events. my natural tendency is to cuss ‘em and walk away, but that doesn’t improve me as a person, nor help people who need an advocate to proclaim pain to power.
:( … <3
Maybe Julie is suffering from the same affliction I was accused of. I was accused of being upset because I wasn’t getting enough attention. Yeah, that was my problem. Every time I went to the church office to inquire why things weren’t matching up to my understanding of the Bible and they brushed me off.