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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1079 comments
I’m OVERJOYED right now that the church is waking up to the reality of narcissism, and how destructive it is. My father is a narcissist, my mother has BPD, and the church gave me HELL for getting out of that relationship. Thank you so much for waking people up to the mind-fuck that is personality disorders and untreated mental illness in the church.
Hi Brad,
You don’t know me, and as far as I can tell, I carry no particular authority or significance in your world. You don’t have to engage with me, or with this awkward, messy, emotional process. But clearly the conversation on this thread has impacted you.
I apologise to you in particular, if any of my comments have been inappropriate, or if I’ve contributed negatively to the overall tone of this thread.
But through this process, we’ve come to understand that something went very terribly wrong around 5 years ago, resulting in Julie and Tony’s divorce, despite the efforts of many of those in the once-off discernment group to help.
We’ve had many of those involved at the time come and clarify, apologise, correct, and rebuke. As far as I can tell, the picture is much clearer for all involved, as a result of their contributions.
I hear very clearly your once-off involvement at the time of the discernment group, and your desire not to be involved now.
You may not be interested in digging up the past, but some really concerning things have happened since:
Julie and Tony have been involved in 5 years of court cases and custody battles. I’ve seen those documents. I also have some experience with long-term engagements with the legal system. They’re exhausting for all involved. This is a terrible and unfortunate situation.
Various changes have happened to various websites and blogs. Whatever the motivations for the changes, the effect has been to conceal the events at the time, the relationships between the major parties, and any ongoing concerns. One side of the story has been presented, and another has ended up being removed.
Apart from multiple testimonies, I don’t have specific examples of the content that was removed. But one way to verify these changes would be to use http://www.waybackmachine.org/ the wayback machine to look up the sites around the dates in question. But that still won’t answer the crucial question: why?
Several people have raised concerns that there’s some sort of a similar, wider pattern of conflict, relational fallout, and information modification in various organisations. I can’t speak to that with any certainty. I’m not close enough to know. But, if it were true, it would be of immense concern to the overall health of the wider church.
I would hope that many of these issues would concern you, even if the method used to uncover them isn’t one you’re happy with.
Brad: My conscience is clear. But I do realize that doesn’t necessarily mean I’m right. However, I’m actually thrilled by this comment thread. When one provides a safe space for people to speak, one must expect a mess.
Why can’t this be a court of our peers? Everyone is free to join in.
We’ve actually seen where some people have come into the thread to give their side of the story, shed light on the other side, asked forgiveness where they were wrong, and requested forgiveness for where they were misunderstood or even falsely accused, and forgiveness was forthcoming. What can be better than that?
I’m beginning to suspect that some people dismiss this process because it actually works.
David
I don’t doubt that you’ve convinced yourself that noble action is taking place on this thread – I am not convinced. I don’t know you so I can’t presume to know anything about your motives.
This started as a post about Mark Driscoll’s pathology in the Mars Hill situation. I actually agree with your original point, but this thread has deviated so far away from your original idea and has become defamatory to others that I had to comment on the matter at hand.
This thread has so much misinformation, inference, innuendo and commentary that I think it needs to be addressed and I will at a later date when I have time.
Brad, I didn’t ask you to do anything but help as I knew there were major issues. So, your version of help was to take someones spin and send Mark S. and then they went right back on tour apparently “leaving the kids in grave danger in my care.” I understand you bought the plane tickets. I am sorry you wasted your money.
Again, why aren’t you directing your rage at the appropriate source(s)?! That’s strange. Why are you dismissing what I am telling you happened after that night in Dallas? This is NOT a private matter. It involved the entire Emergent, Christianity 21, Solomon’s Porch community as posters of the thread testified.I was publicly smeared. I am sorry your good friends roped you into their diabolical plan….but that’s what happened whether you care to acknowledge, accept it, or not. Scrubbing of the EV website was admitted by Steve Knight who said Tony asked him to do it and then he did it himself. There are too many other verifications I already laid out and witnesses corroborated. If you are innocent don’t worry about it….but I would be pissed at the appropriate sources JoPa. Again, if your intent was genuine and you say it is then I apologize again however….you should never discern someone without the person present. I disagree as do many others that the similarities to these people and Mars Hill personalities are frighteningly similar. I think I would know. Also, are you really dismissing my account of physical, spiritual and emotional abuse….wow….some Pastor.