Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?

Brad [Cecil] … Brad [Sargent] here. It’s been a long, long time since we met at Young Leader events, and sorry that reconnecting is under some angst-filled circumstances.

I do have some thoughts myself on the kinds of questions and issues you raised toward the end of your comment a bit ago (October 1, 2014 at 12:59 pm), about emerging, Emergent, Mars Hill, etc. You’ve been an insider on the history of Young Leaders to Terra Nova Project to Emergent Village and beyond, so I look forward to reading what you have to say when you post your perspectives.

As it turned out, my point of departure from the “emerging ministry movement” took me more into the missional wing of things, where I’ve been continuing to work with several virtual, international teams on social transformation projects. I’ve done a lot of research writing on both why/how things go wrong in organizations when we want to “do good” right, and how to do start-ups that are safe zones at the beginning and sustainable to the end.

Since I spent 17 of the last 40 years in definitely sick non-profit systems, and as many years in healthy ones, I feel I have a good based from which to compare and contrast. So, my research work has included writing about 10 shorter case studies or longer archives on toxic church and ministry situations since 2008. I’ve put in at least 600 hours in writing, fact-checking, and editing them. The most recent case has been an extensive research guide on legal/ethical issues regarding Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll.

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2014/09/07/mark-driscoll-and-mars-hill-church-research-guide-part-2e/

I’ve also been keeping up on this thread as best I can, and I just last night posted an article about some issues I see with Emergent.

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/mars-hill-emergent-movement-emergent-meltdown/

And, FWIW, I do see some parallels between the kinds of behaviors going on in both Mars Hill and the E.V./Emergent movement that have ended up in allegations of misuse of spiritual authority – and also in what seems to me to be closed systems or “interlocking directories” of connections in both. Obviously the theologies are quite different, but I would also suggest that at the deepest level, the epistemologies are similar enough of an either/or processing style to spark similar “deep systems” despite radically different surface beliefs.

Each of those relatively short opinions require relatively large expansions. And I’ve been posting my responses to general issues like that since 2008, and may well be addressing more specifics of Mars Hill and Emergent in the near future as time allows. If interested, my FAQs post categorizes most of the articles I’ve written on spiritual abuse issues. I just did that a few days ago, and hopefully it makes the material more accessible to locate partial answers to the E.V./Mars Hill questions.

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/spiritual-abuse-faqs/

And i can understand frustration over the exposure of details in this thread, if one assumes that the core issue is about messy private family matters like divorce. That isn’t my assumption, though. I’m looking at this gestalt through the lens of visible eruptions of what would otherwise be private matters if they did not involve acknowledged leaders who are in the public eye. That’s exactly what I posted earlier, just minutes before your longer comment today.

https://nakedpastor.ehermitsinc.com/2014/09/tony-jones-on-mark-driscoll-what-came-first-the-thug-or-the-theology/#comment-129953

To me, this means it’s about character issues and behaviors that may disqualify a leader from a role of public ministry, at least temporarily and perhaps permanently. And that’s a serious matter for discernment by the churches and the Church. And if the emergent conversation truly has been integrated into most expressions of Christianity as you stated, then shouldn’t that mean Tony Jones and other Emergent leaders should be accountable to all their audiences, then and now, for any points and patterns of alleged abuse? In my opinion, much could have been cleared up five years ago when these issues came up, as did pressure to various bloggers to edit or pull down posts and comments. It simmered under the surface and now, the eruptions may seem worse but it appears that maybe the issues can come to some closure.

Anyway, yes, this is all rather ugly in some very unpleasant ways, but I think the overall conversation here has been relatively civil – at least within the framework I’m working from that all public leaders / figures / role-models who are authors, speakers, event sponsors, etc., commit themselves to public scrutiny and accountability. Seems to me it was providence that this happens to have turned out to be the public venue in which that is taking place.

Final thought: I reminded here of a quote from the movie Gandhi. I think it’s relevant to the entire thread and all of us who find clashing perspectives to those we ourselves hold. After one of the last British Viceroys over India releases Gandhi from jail following the Empire’s inability to counter the 1930 “salt march” protest. According to interviews, this protest was apparently the first incident of international protest committed to film and shown in theatres as part of newsreels. Thus, both the Indian protesters and the British regents had their actions and responses shown before the watching world on the emerging media of their era.

So – Gandhi is ushered into the Viceroy’s office, and the first thing he says to the Viceroy is, “I am aware that I must have given you much cause for irritation, Your Excellency. I hope it will not stand between us as men.”

Continuing conversation in the midst of irritation is difficult, no denying. I’ve had some highly uncomfortable conversations both online and offline about all this. But I hope we can stay engaged for the sake of a healthier future for all of what was once known as the “emerging” ministry movement from which New Calvinism/Mars Hill, Emergent Village/Emergent, missional, post-evangelical, progressive, and other movements sifted themselves out. Don’t we owe that to the Church, for the sake of the Kingdom?

I’m OVERJOYED right now that the church is waking up to the reality of narcissism, and how destructive it is. My father is a narcissist, my mother has BPD, and the church gave me HELL for getting out of that relationship. Thank you so much for waking people up to the mind-fuck that is personality disorders and untreated mental illness in the church.

Hi Brad,

You don’t know me, and as far as I can tell, I carry no particular authority or significance in your world. You don’t have to engage with me, or with this awkward, messy, emotional process. But clearly the conversation on this thread has impacted you.

I apologise to you in particular, if any of my comments have been inappropriate, or if I’ve contributed negatively to the overall tone of this thread.

But through this process, we’ve come to understand that something went very terribly wrong around 5 years ago, resulting in Julie and Tony’s divorce, despite the efforts of many of those in the once-off discernment group to help.

We’ve had many of those involved at the time come and clarify, apologise, correct, and rebuke. As far as I can tell, the picture is much clearer for all involved, as a result of their contributions.

I hear very clearly your once-off involvement at the time of the discernment group, and your desire not to be involved now.

You may not be interested in digging up the past, but some really concerning things have happened since:

Julie and Tony have been involved in 5 years of court cases and custody battles. I’ve seen those documents. I also have some experience with long-term engagements with the legal system. They’re exhausting for all involved. This is a terrible and unfortunate situation.

Various changes have happened to various websites and blogs. Whatever the motivations for the changes, the effect has been to conceal the events at the time, the relationships between the major parties, and any ongoing concerns. One side of the story has been presented, and another has ended up being removed.

Apart from multiple testimonies, I don’t have specific examples of the content that was removed. But one way to verify these changes would be to use http://www.waybackmachine.org/ the wayback machine to look up the sites around the dates in question. But that still won’t answer the crucial question: why?

Several people have raised concerns that there’s some sort of a similar, wider pattern of conflict, relational fallout, and information modification in various organisations. I can’t speak to that with any certainty. I’m not close enough to know. But, if it were true, it would be of immense concern to the overall health of the wider church.

I would hope that many of these issues would concern you, even if the method used to uncover them isn’t one you’re happy with.

Brad: My conscience is clear. But I do realize that doesn’t necessarily mean I’m right. However, I’m actually thrilled by this comment thread. When one provides a safe space for people to speak, one must expect a mess.

Why can’t this be a court of our peers? Everyone is free to join in.

We’ve actually seen where some people have come into the thread to give their side of the story, shed light on the other side, asked forgiveness where they were wrong, and requested forgiveness for where they were misunderstood or even falsely accused, and forgiveness was forthcoming. What can be better than that?

I’m beginning to suspect that some people dismiss this process because it actually works.

David

I don’t doubt that you’ve convinced yourself that noble action is taking place on this thread – I am not convinced. I don’t know you so I can’t presume to know anything about your motives.

This started as a post about Mark Driscoll’s pathology in the Mars Hill situation. I actually agree with your original point, but this thread has deviated so far away from your original idea and has become defamatory to others that I had to comment on the matter at hand.

This thread has so much misinformation, inference, innuendo and commentary that I think it needs to be addressed and I will at a later date when I have time.