Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?

Van, a fair amount of coinciding testimony and historical context has been put into this thread. Added together, they give open-ended veracity to Julie’s tale. You agree and hope/pray for her. You chide Tony.

You also correctly point out that some people who were accused were not altogether guilty. Yes, this is what happens when silence descends after harm is delivered, when no one will speak up, clear the air, care for the victim for righteousness’ sake. For years! It is inevitable that the whole group will be tarred with the same brush. But happily, on this thread, a couple of them did speak up and it was sorted!

So when people whisper in your ear about their lack of culpability, why do you not send them over here, or to Julie privately, to sort it out? Heck, there’s even precedent! But instead you come here to “admonish”.

You write that you require one extra piece, one particular thing that Julie hasn’t been willing to make public but has given to others privately. You declare that without this one extra bit, everyone on this thread (including the blog owner) are like those we are criticizing. And then you add that many people agree with you.

So perhaps you don’t really believe Julie’s tale? I have no idea but am aware that you are manipulating us and I can’t help but wonder if you are being manipulated too.

And honestly, after what Julie has been through with this bunch (and her supporters have been through with different-similar groups), why would any of you believe your critical opinions matter to us? Especially considering your little treatise on groupthink.

I suggest you tell those whisperers to gather up their courage and face their proper jobs of reconciliation.

Van Rue – I have to agree with David – you just don’t get it. This isn’t a court. I figured when you started talking about truth, mentioning your ministry in exposing “false theology”, that you were on another evangelical quest for certainty. That quest for certainty sure encourages the groupspeak you think you see, where someone dares to question what the group sees as truth. Yes this conversation was painful to read but I’m thankful that Julie and others have found some healing from it. And for that it was worth it.

Van Rue: I was appreciating your comment until you got near the end and proved that you do not understand what’s going on here. You said “Biblically charges against an elder should be brought by 2 or more witnesses, I would accept that letter as one. But I am suspicious now because Julie refuses to release it.” As has been said over and over again, this is not a court, but simply a safe space for people to tell their stories, for people to be heard, and for people to listen. I don’t think anyone is hoping that some will walk away proven guilty. That’s why Julie, perhaps, doesn’t feel the need to share documents. Same for me. That’s not what this is about. Julie was able to tell her story, be heard, and even finally believed by some. The apologies were incidental. Please just listen.

I am both dismayed, and in anguish over this thread for so many reasons. I am in anguish over the pain caused by people who follow God against other believers and esp those believers we call wives, even though its a strange distant and archaic term. I am at once convicted to hug and love mine more.

Julie and other people on this thread. I wish I had God’s power to bring healing into your lives for what is truly wrenching events that have no place in Christ’s body. I am so angry that I am shaking as I write this.

But I also want to apologize that this thread represents a failure of the entire Christian Church… we have done a terrible job of tending to, and bringing Christ’s love and healing to our brothers and sisters in Christ who have been wounded. Forgive me for not giving proper credit to its author, but as someone once said “The Christian army is the only army in the world that doesn’t tend to its wounded”. Julie, and others, we as a church have deeply failed you and for that I am so sorry. First to protect, and then to offer council, comfort, healing and community. I pray for you Julie that the God who made you and loves you will bring full peace and healing into your life.

A little about me, although I am known only to a few of you my ministry has been many times to address spiritual abuse, rebuke (and comfort pastors), but in many cases my service the church has been to address, confront and expose false theology. Instead books and blog posts like many of you my ministry has been more person to person (I am not diminishing your ministries in anyway, I am very grateful for them, but I have quoted many of you here many times!) If there is one profound central mission or verse that defines my hope, and the hope of Jesus, it’s that simply “the Truth will set you free” (john 8:32).

The question that David posted at the beginning is whether “The Thug or the Theology” Came first. The answer matters less to but what matters more is how the healing comes first: it comes from Truth. That truth is revealed first in the person of Jesus Christ, but then as both personal and theological truth as he works out in our lives as we co labor taking every thought captive the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10:5).

And its with that hope in truth and in love (eph 4:15) I begin a small admonishment. Although by word volume this will seem more negative than my heart truly is, but as so many others more eloquently share, encourage and minister to Julie better than I ever could, I will leave the great 500 posts on this thread supporting Julie to speak for themselves. I couldn’t add or improve on them if I tried. So please don’t interpret my following remarks relative to their volume, or any way an attempt to minimize or discredit Julies or others sincere pain. I only offer these because the few that have tried to speak out have been unfairly shot down. There is a small danger here that I believe others have spoken to. But sadly those others have been shot down because of sympathetic and dangerous groupthink.
Someone (maybe Clair) way up around post 480 asks some good questions on what causes people to become abusers. Brad Sargent as always has some great insight but I would add one more: Groupthink. Our desire for community and acceptance, even out of selective empathy and care lead us to think black and white in our relationships, its us vs. them! We pick teams when we are kids and that simply carries into adulthood in different more complex ways. It’s easier because I don’t have to think as hard to label people belonging to one group or another. I can look at a conference docket and assume automatically I don’t like this person, because so-and-so spoke at 10 am on the same stage. But our desire on some degree our need for identity and community (which are legitimate needs) gets short-circuited we can create a social and environment ripe for others and ourselves where discrimination and abuse are not only OK, they are welcome. Have you ever wondered why abusers find other abusers? The develop a secret community where that terrible abuse because excused, justified, and welcome. That secret community offers shared and close fellowship. We simply abuse because it’s a short cut way to both have friends and avoid the failings deep in our own lives.
This discussion covers many things, too much to address here so I would like to focus on one area. Tony Jones terrible abuse, adultery, neglect should fall under church discipline. His attempt to justify that with heresy is disgusting and shameful. Tony if you read this I humbly urge you in Christ Jesus to repent. To seek God and fully reconcile with the truth first, and those you have hurt second… and submit to living loving, truthful and faithful life in Christ.
The Emergent Church has come under fire… again. But I could write for days on this, so I won’t talk about it here.
But there is also the serious charges against the 6 of those who aided and abetted the serious crimes of Mr. Jones in Dallas, and I speak to these because the others that have brought this up been so viscously shot down or ignored on this forum. Sadly. I will bring it up again. As we mix charges and evidence, it’s important to recognize that simply none-of these 6 were perpetrators or even first-hand witnesses to most (maybe some) to the terrible treatment Julie sadly endured. Many of them are being unfairly lumped together with Tony because of the Groupthink presented on this thread. No matter title, conference presence, friendship, book credits, phone or email records… etc, none of that makes them Tony Jones or answerable to his sins in anyway. Tony must be assessed and discerned alone on the evidence that pertains only to him, which at this time seems both voluminous and credible. True some people denigrated Julie behind her back, cruelly and unfairly, and some of them have gratefully apologized here.
The 6 others that have been accused by Julie on this thread of neglecting her and aiding abetting the crimes of Tony, should be held to account. But they should be held to account on their own evidence not on Tony’s. 3 of them have appeared here to defend themselves here, which is admirable. All 3 of them make claims of discrepancy between Julie’s account and theirs. Brad Cecil asks Julie to release the letter they wrote that supports their claims on innocence. Then some guy named Alex pops on under the name AnImpartialOberserver, Alex, Alex the Inept I am not sure, asks some very good questions… but gets shot down.
I would like to address that Brad Cecil, AnImpartialObserver/Alex and now myself have all asked to see this letter written by our 6 alledged conspirators. Biblically charges against an elder should be brought by 2 or more witnesses, I would accept that letter as one. But I am suspicious now because Julie refuses to release it.
This forum is public. It has been read by thousands now, and maybe even for years. So the standards that would exist in a therepy session simply don’t apply here. Major charges of complicity have been raised. As someone who fights abuse, I am deeply concerned when evidence exists but is withheld. And many of you here are conspiring to withhold it. This is falls under the ausipcies of church displine given the gravity of the charges and the people involved.
You cannot simultaneously cry out of church discipline and at the same time neglect its Biblical requirements…. Of 2 witnesses. (1 Tim 5:19). That scripture was designed to prevent… abuse. Abuse of another kind.
David the Naked Pastor I appreciate your page, but I don’t appreciate how you have let this discussion about abuse, tragically and sadly, become the petri dish for another form abuse. Just more subtle even if it’s done in and out of real pain, its not justified before God or men. One abuse does not excuse the other. Are these 6 people guilty of something? Maybe they are, but they cannot nor should they be publically denigrated without evidence. Julie has been asked to share that evidence, but she has not. She has been excused because of her pain. I would offer to end as I started, that simply the truth will set you free. And withholding that truth is neither fruitful for the Kingdom of God, the Body of Jesus Christ, or even the healing of those involved.
David the Naked Pastor you have received many negative comments about this thread in pms. Much of that concern is justified. Not to hide Tony’s deeds, or to protect the Emergent Leaders, because simply in many ways this thread has started the seeds of the very abuse that it claims to oppose.

Sara WG I do wish any victim of similar abuses would find their voice and a safe space to speak their truth. So healing and necessary.

Rick. Wow. #1. During my time of experiencing abuses/deception/darkness, I did seek God for answers. I did pray for a mountain to be moved. It seemed that I could not swing a dead cat without hitting the bible verse John chapter 15.

I must have asked, “Where is the fruit?” 100 times. That WAS my verse. There was only rotten fruit as far as I could see. I knew this was not of God but of ego, greed and darkness. I could go into great detail about the spiritual warfare aspects of my story. I can tell you a tangible darkness came over our home. It was actually my mother who called it out, without knowing any of the details. She FELT it. Little did I know then that there was great merit to her intuition. A prophetic friend had a dream that he was being used not to glorify God but to raise up the enemy. She called him and told him about her dream and told him it was a warning. He told her, “You know nothing about Emergent!” He hung up on her. Before he was about to board a plane his back went out, and he was flat on the floor moaning. I truly believe it was a sign from God saying STOP, get your family in order. Refusing to be sidelined fame and soaring notoriety he took a wheelchair to the gate, and got on Vicodin and went to Ireland. Then twittered to his adoring fans how much pain he was in, and the sympathetic replies came pouring in.

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.…