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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1079 comments
Kevin, you wrote:
I think the only way out of this for the Church is to be confessional and for us all to admit our flaws more readily.
I could not agree more. I can tell you when I sat in the grass with Doug Pagitt in 1996 (I think) and he was dreaming of starting his church and the ideas and desire to be real and true and different…I believe the intention was authentic…then ego, greed, status, book deals, money and the inability to admit a flaw messed him up. He lives 1 block from me and refuses to make peace with me. I have reached out many times. Most recently tonight and this is why I am writing.
Today my crazy and obsessed ex husband went to the police (again). He lied (again) and said, “She came to my place of business unwanted and harassed me.” I dropped my sons hockey skates at Doug’s and said, “Can you please give these to Tony so I don’t have to drive them to his house.” The police called and asked me about it. I went to Doug’s and said, “Do you know what Tony did today when I dropped off hockey skates? He tried to say I harassed him and that this is his place of business!” Doug seemed to get the sheer insanity and said he would talk to him about his flat out LYING. Then Doug quickly said, “You told the internet I tried to have you hospitalized.” I said, “Because you did!” He denied it and everything else. Then when he realized he was being confronted on the fraud that he has become he said, “Do you want me to post the email where you say you feel suicidal?!” I said, "OF course I did….I have 3 kids under age 6 and my husband is having an affair with a 28 year old in Dallas, Texas the city he was in at that very moment and refused to talk to me and Doug would answer his cell and say, “He can’t talk to you right now I have control over his cell and laptop.” This was ALL in an elaborate effort to control the spin of a leaked affair. So, tonight “Pastor” Doug’s best loving Christian response is, “You need to leave my property now forever.” Many people have witnessed the pattern of Tony and Doug raging whenever they hear something that paints them in a bad light or questions them. This is a perfect example. I told Doug he is uniquely positioned to make things better for my suffering kids and his only response was, “I told you to go to the hospital and you didn’t listen to me.” It seems he REALLY needed me to do that so he could cover up a whole bunch of junk including the fact that his business partner is an unrepentant adulterer who is clinically diagnosed and mentally ill. Jesus was a truth teller and despised frauds. Me too.
So, Kevin….yes, the only way out is to confess, apologize, repent and forgive. Some egos just, can’t. do. it.
Hey everyone. I know that this conversation has started to slow down since September. I have been following it from the beginning, but never felt I had anything to contribute and didn’t want to be another unnecessary comment in the middle of an important conversation.
My wife and I had a lot of long conversations about this thread and about Driscoll. We are both seminary students looking toward pastoral ministry, and have a lot of questions about how to be leaders in the church without abusing it with our demons. As a white, privileged male, I especially have questions about whether the church would be better off without me.
Anyway, I wrote a piece about it and included a summary of some of the events here. Because this has become something of a community, I wanted to submit it to you all for “approval” of sorts. I don’t have a large audience or anything to be worried, but one thing I’ve learned from reading this thread is that this is not “my story”. So for those on this thread whose story it is, I want to give you the voice to change the way I have portrayed the story if you think I’ve done a poor job reflecting it.
In the process, I hope that my article contributes to this conversation in some small way. I think the only way out of this for the Church is to be confessional and for us all to admit our flaws more readily. Would love some feedback from anyone, but especially those whose stories I am repeating. My article is called: “I am Mark Driscoll, and I need to change.” You can find it here: http://wp.me/pPuFU-cm
Came across this article and thought it was fascinating and apropos.
The definitions and descriptions in the article are salient; especially, the “Psychopaths” and “Almost Psychopaths” definitions and “as percentage of population” (~1% and an estimated 10-15%, respectively) were important to help discuss some issues generally, and specifically to this post and the thread (though I haven’t read anything in the last month or so).
http://newworkplace.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/can-you-spot-a-workplace-psychopath-from-a-resume-and-job-references/
My take is that there are a lot of people here who are not merely trying to press an agenda, but rather truly trying to find their way, which is a good thing. There could be some defensiveness but it’s overshadowed by a quest for authenticity.
Various cultures adapt theologies to their conditions. What is called “bad theology” in evangelical America may not be the same bad theology of other parts of church America. Further, theology problems in Swaziland, Fujian Province, or Leipzig may not bear any identifiable resemblance whatsoever. It is therefore grandiose to claim that there are lessons here for the “whole church”. That is akin to U.S. baseball winners being called “World Champions.”
That notwithstanding, there are important lessons here for some, and if indeed there is psychopathology involved, who knows but that some churches can be fortified against that, too.
Naif,
Your wonderings all make sense. I have no doubt (as do the professionals) that he has his “lavish lifestyle” currently in Italy created to look like he is destitute on the books but has a wine collection and exclusive Horse and Hunt Club and on and on. I was told early on when the self employed are also diagnosed narcissist….your basically screwed. He has never once willingly given a penny for his kids but money has been pried from his cold hands through the county collections. His income streams are craftily covered up through his various and there are many revenue streams. I fought for my kids to get money for years and now I am taking it into my own hands getting my Masters and will pull us out of poverty. Screw him. This path is healthier for me and mine and I refuse to titillate the sick bastard by continuing to play the game with no end that he enjoys so much. Operating as he does not exist really is my key to peace and happiness. He will have his reckoning with God for his children crying for milk.
Julie