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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1079 comments
Apologies for the delay in my response – life got in the way…
Tony Jones’ and Julie McMahon’s court cases have gone from 2008 – 2014. They’re protected by an image verification system.
http://pa.courts.state.mn.us/Search.aspx?ID=200andNodeID=174,151,160,131,132,146,111,175,161,191,176,147,133,119,134,120,121,113,162,1303,1301,1305,1302,1306,122,178,192,179,135,193,163,180,164,148,114,136,137,183,184,138,115,165,154,155,123,139,140,141,185,124,186,194,142,187,166,188,143,167,125,144,189,116,195,117,157,126,168,1491,1492,1493,169,158,170,127,159,128,145,171,129,197,172,190,181,182,153,156,177,173,150,152,11810,11811,11812,11813,11815,11822,11823,11817,11818,11819,11820,1304,13041,13042,13043,13044,1961,1962,1308,11201,11202,13045,11203andNodeDesc=All%20MNCIS%20Sites%20-%20Case%20Search Search for Case Number 27-FA-08-5921 for
In the Marriage of Anthony Hawthorne Jones and Julie Anne McMahon Jones 2008-2014
http://pa.courts.state.mn.us/Search.aspx?ID=200andNodeID=174,151,160,131,132,146,111,175,161,191,176,147,133,119,134,120,121,113,162,1303,1301,1305,1302,1306,122,178,192,179,135,193,163,180,164,148,114,136,137,183,184,138,115,165,154,155,123,139,140,141,185,124,186,194,142,187,166,188,143,167,125,144,189,116,195,117,157,126,168,1491,1492,1493,169,158,170,127,159,128,145,171,129,197,172,190,181,182,153,156,177,173,150,152,11810,11811,11812,11813,11815,11822,11823,11817,11818,11819,11820,1304,13041,13042,13043,13044,1961,1962,1308,11201,11202,13045,11203andNodeDesc=All%20MNCIS%20Sites%20-%20Case%20Search Search for Case Number 27-CO-13-8209 for
Anthony Hawthorne Jones vs Julie McMahon Jones 2013-2014
For Tony’s (some of) public comments on courts and custody:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2013/07/15/its-a-court-system-not-a-justice-system/ It’s a Court System, Not a Justice System
“I’ve often described the process of getting divorced (with kids involved) in Hennepin County like being caught in a dream, one where you’re in danger and screaming at the top of your lungs, but no sound is coming out of your throat, and everyone just goes about their own business, unable to hear you.”
“Ours is not a justice system. It’s a court system. If we can discipline ourselves to acknowledge that, it will benefit our mental health.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2010/09/08/dads-in-divorce-court-at-jesus-creed-and-tikkun/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2010/09/08/dads-in-divorce-court-at-jesus-creed-and-tikkun/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2012/04/13/custody-laws-our-government-in-inaction/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2012/04/13/custody-laws-our-government-in-inaction/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2012/05/25/update-minnesota-governor-sides-with-the-lawyers-and-against-dads/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2012/05/25/update-minnesota-governor-sides-with-the-lawyers-and-against-dads/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2012/06/02/gov-mark-dayton-vetoed-kids/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2012/06/02/gov-mark-dayton-vetoed-kids/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2013/06/15/all-i-want-for-fathers-day-equal-parenting-time/ http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2013/06/15/all-i-want-for-fathers-day-equal-parenting-time/
After reading these, I see that Tony Jones is genuinely distressed about not seeing his kids.
I also see now that this situation has far more nuance and complexity than I have perhaps presented.
It’s easy, particularly on the internet, to perceive or promote a one-sided version of someone, and for my (small) part in that, I’m sorry.
I honestly really appreciate Brad Cecil’s honesty and forthrightness. I appreciate him speaking his side of the story. I appreciate him not shying away from the ugly details like others did. Brad, I honestly have gained tremendous respect for you due to that comment. Thank you.
@Brad (Cecil),
Thanks for joining in the conversation, even briefly. Whether the accounts align or not, it’s important to hear the perspective and recollection of people who were directly involved in the discussion of the pastoral response at that time in 2008.
Whether right or wrong, the “discernment group” has been accused of covering an affair and either joining a smear campaign against Julie or attempting to have her committed. I think it important to note two things.
First, actions by individuals within the group may not reflect the actions or intent of the group as a whole or of other individuals within the group. Is it possible that you acted in good faith but the execution of the group’s recommendation went haywire? It’s entirely possible – perhaps even likely, but we won’t know without testimony like yours. Thanks for providing it.
Second, and this is critical, stated for the record: the recommendation to basically “stop everything, get your ass home” was entirely the right thing to do. By Julie’s account, things went off the rails in the execution, but that fundamental recommendation was the right thing to do.
To my mind, there are still outstanding questions about whether there were undercurrents going on within the group. It seems that there is evidence of an affair, but who knew about it, and when? Before that meeting, or after? Most pointedly, while I appreciate your note that Tony held nothing back under questioning, I’m not convinced… though I’ve no doubt he would have left that impression with everyone. If you were lied to and made a good-faith recommendation on that basis, I would not hold you culpable. In the context of the wider group though, it seems odd that although there was a (wise, IMHO) effort to bring in outside counsel via teleconference, there seems to have been an omission to bring Julie into that conversation directly. On that basis, the recommendation that Julie seek care was made on third-party testimony – presumably from Tony for the most part. In this, I suggest she was wronged.
Brad Cecil,
I apologize if what you describe here is true. Your account describes you having little to do with it and you knew of no impropriety. Why wasn’t I conferenced in on the discernent? That seemed off. Then things must have gone horribly wrong after it was handed off. The letter says grave concern for the kids but then the tour was never suspended but resumed, and there was no conversation or “tending to the family.” I disagree because this is not a family matter as it involved public figures who smeared my name. I apologize to you. I am sorry to lump you in and I will take your words to me as truth that you were not in on it.
Julie
Tony Jones, you allowing Julie to be arrested on your front lawn when she came to your house to get the kids, unaware of the details of the protective order, when you had the ability to let her go? You can quote Scripture to me all day long, brother. That situation already tells me everything about you I need to know.
And to those of you crying that this “shining the light on church leadership douchebaggery” is only hurting the church, I refer you to Jesus tossing the tables in the temple and calling out the Pharisees on several occasions. Narcissistic folks making their living telling others what to do and how to live can count on having a bright light shine their way every now and then. Some examine their lives and change and some dig their heels in and let glimpses of their true nature peek out. And the listeners can observe and decide who’s Godly and who’s a thug.