Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?

Hi Danica
Thank you for checking that info- it is sad that women’s voices seem not to be as valued, I want to say it’s reading voices like yours and Beckys and others that gives me courage to comment. So please keep it up.

I’m using bullet points to be succinct in my response, CAPS ARE USED FOR EMPHASIS:
• I’M NOT GOING TO APOLOGIZE TO JULIE! AFTER THIS PUBLIC DEFAMATION – I WANT A PUBLIC APOLOGY FROM JULIE!
• I was trying to be silent because I didn’t want to contribute to the pain felt by many people named in this thread, but I don’t care about that anymore. I have no “pastoral care” feelings in this matter any longer.
• I knew nothing of this thread until Friday when I received an email from Julie. I didn’t even read the email or thread until Sunday evening. I went through the thread Sunday evening and discovered what was going on.
• I’ve always considered this a private family matter and have never spoken of this matter publicly. I’ve never written of this matter on a website, blog or any social media…until now.
• This entire thread on nakepastor.com seems to be an attempt to pull people “offside” and get people to comment on a very personal matter between Julie and Tony. Initially, I didn’t want to give in and get pulled “offside”, but I don’t care about that anymore. Some on this thread have crossed the line of human decency and have made very personal attacks on my friends.
• This has been called “abuse” and I take that comment seriously – so I want others to know the details. I was directly involved in the events and have been named multiple times in this thread.
• Background: I’m the Brad Cecil mentioned in this thread.
o I was a part of the development of the group that became Emergent.
o I was a Pastor – I left vocational ministry in December of 2005.
o Because I was financially able – I was never paid to be a Pastor.
o I’ve never published a book and have nothing to sell.
o I have no financial stake in the Emergent Brand, C21, JoPa, CANA Project, etc.
o I have attended and even spoken at some events, but I have always paid my own way and have never received a dime of compensation for my involvement in the Emergent movement.
o I have no financial reason to be involved in any of this.
o I have no reason to protect anyone mentioned in this thread other than friendship.
• I was a friend to Julie and Tony. Of all the people involved in the conversation in the early days, Julie and I seemed to get along very well – in fact we both commented on this at various times to others. I admired her for her intelligence, straightforward communication, sense of humor and experience in life.
The events of 2008:
• Here is what happened as I remember the events in 2008:
• Doug, Tony and Mark were on tour with the Church Basement Road Show. It came through the Dallas Ft Worth Area in July 2008 for two shows – one in Ft Worth and one in Dallas.
• I had no involvement in the planning of the events, the details or outcomes of events in the DFW area.
• I attended the Ft Worth event only as an interested person.
• While the tour was in the Dallas Ft Worth area – I received several phone calls from Julie; she was very upset about their marriage and asked me to intervene. Up until this point, I did not know how troubled the relationship was. I heard they were having trouble, but did not know the extent of the trouble. I had absolutely no idea of any of the personal behavior going on by either Julie or Tony.
• THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT – JULIE’S COMMUNICATION TO ME ON THE PHONE CAUSED ME TO BE VERY CONCERNED FOR JULIE’S WELL-BEING. I AGREED TO HELP BECAUSE OF THE PHONE CALLS.
• The Night of the Dallas show Danielle Shroyer and I met with Tony, Doug and Mark to discuss what was going on.
• We held a conference call that night with Brian McLaren, Mike King, Doug Pagitt, Mark Scandrette, Danielle Shroyer and I. This is the group being called the “Discernment Group”. Brian and Mike were not in Dallas, we sought them out because we valued their opinion as leaders and the phone conversations had become so alarming that we felt that we needed counsel from others.
• We did not convene our conversation to provide discernment about Julie, rather to discern what should be done to resolve the matter.
• THIS IS IMPORTANT – WE QUESTIONED TONY EXTENSIVELY ON HIS PERSONAL BEHAVIOR. THERE WAS NO ATTEMPT TO COVER UP ANYTHING OR PROTECT ANYONE. THE ONLY REASON FOR OUR COUNSEL WAS OUR CONCERN – NOT FOR COVER-UP. OUR COUNSEL WAS NOT INTENDED TO HUMILIATE JULIE OR TO PERPETUATE AN IDEA ABOUT HER THAT WAS INTENDED TO HARM HER. OUR COUNSEL TO HER WAS DEVELOPED OUT OF A GENUINE CONCERN FOR BOTH JULIE AND TONY – THEY WERE STILL MARRIED AT THE TIME AND WE HOPED FOR RECONCILIATION.
• We did not suggest that Julie be “admitted to a Mental Hospital” only that she find professionals in their area that could help. The matter escalated beyond pastoral counseling and we felt this was above our level of expertise.
• Julie offered to post the letter – I think she should do so!
• We decided in that phone call that the tour should be suspended, Tony should go home immediately and that we should provide help to the Jones family as soon as possible.
• We asked Mark Scandrette to meet with Julie because he had the best relationship with her at that time.
• I personally bought plane tickets for Tony and Mark. I drove them to the airport hotel and they took the first flight to Minnesota in the morning.
• THIS IS IMPORTANT – THE ONLY REASON DANIELLE AND I WERE INVOLVED IS BECAUSE THIS EVENT TOOK PLACE IN THE DALLAS FT WORTH AREA AND WE WERE ASKED TO HELP. IF IT TOOK PLACE IN ANOTHER LOCATION OR WE DECIDED NOT TO HELP THERE WOULD BE NOTHING TO DISCUSS ON THIS THREAD.
• DOUG AND MARK WERE IN THE DISCERNMENT GROUP BECAUSE OF JULIE’S REQUEST FOR THEIR INTERVENTION.
• THE ONLY REASON BRIAN AND MIKE WERE INVOVLED IS BECAUSE WE CALLED THEM SEEKING WISDOM.
• OUR INVOLVEMENT WAS NOT INTENTIONAL – IT WAS REQUESTED!
• I wanted to be quiet about this matter, but I can’t any longer.
Recognition and Clarifications:
• I don’t know David Hayward so I can’t speak of his motives behind perpetuating this thread. I’ve read the “Speak truth to power” answer, but it doesn’t explain perpetuating all this misinformation – this is ultimately a private family matter, but because of this thread, it’s become a very public family matter. It is about a marriage that ended badly.
• I am sure I will be called a coward, a narcissist, a misogynist, a pathological liar, a gas lighter, a victim blamer, a deflector and many other names by the people involved in this thread… I DON’T CARE
• I am sure my comments will be interpreted, marginalized, re-interpreted, psycho-analyzed, associated and dismissed…I DON’T CARE
• I AM SORRY FOR ONE THING – I AM SORRY THAT I SAID I WOULD HELP!
• Since this became public and has been called “abuse” I want others to know these details and I want a PUBLIC APOLOGY from Julie!

I will post one more time to add my thoughts about Emergent, Tony, Mark Driscoll, Brian McLaren, Phyllis Tickle and a few other things, but then I will go away…I don’t care to be involved in this type of behavior any longer.

@Danica, I think you’re bringing up very important information that highlights core gender issues.

Seems to me Emergent Village and other streams from the “emerging ministry” movement lost out.

There is a long line of movements that connect the gender-equality dots over the last 50 years. For instance, there was what was called at the time “the first men’s movement” — men who did what they could to be supportive partners for wives, mothers, sisters, friends, women of the community in the women’s rights movements of the 1960s and ’70s.

There was the challenge of the broadside/pamphlet in the African-American communities of the 1970s and ‘80s, "Is you or ain’t you a brother?" to address domestic violence issues as gender-equal partners.

All the way to Emma Watson’s HeForShe campaign speech at the United Nations on 20 September 2014, inviting men to embrace gender-equality as an issue that brings freedom to both women and men.

Connecting those dots creates a line whose trajectory initially appeared to go right through the emerging-to-Emergent movement of the late 1990s and into the 2000s decade. It seemed E.V. was behind that all the way. But as the line has moved on and we tilt the perspective, it seems E.V. truly was literally stationed behind that point, but not on the line itself, figuratively traveling on it into the future. Which is sad.

This may be part of why some of us from that ever-so-long-ago “emerging” movement ultimately ended up finding more affinity within parts of the missional movement. There it wasn’t so much about deconstructing theological concepts for reconstructing a theoretical utopia, but in working side-by-side as partners in social transformation enterprises that fit the context of the communities the Spirit planted us in. In my experiences of working virtually with teams in the US and UK, it hasn’t mattered which person of what gender — or generation — generated the ideas or facilitated the planning or implementation or evaluation or revision.

Hopefully this thread will help people connect onto that kind of gender-parity trajectory …

P.S. I tried to double-like your comment but the system wouldn’t let me. :-(

@Danica,
I’m not sure if the metric is valid, but it irks me that you’d feel you had to resort to some kind of straw poll measure to have to prove your point with any authority — the feeling is a symptom that underscores the truth of your point. Because no matter what the tally would have said, you, my friend, are correct. Your last paragraph is bang-on.

We have a long way to go.

@ Mike

There’s a background to everything. Many people who follow abusive church movements are well aware that such abusive organizations will release stories that get picked up by Christian media that are purportedly impartial but are really just paid ads for the ministry. This happened just months ago in the Driscoll situation. That is the backdrop against which you are operating when you tell us, without explanation, about a service running a story.

Mob. Spiritual McCarthyism.

For one offering sincere apologies for calling someone names, you are quick to throw to throw more around.