Just how amazing is grace?

"Amazing Grace" cartoon by nakedpastor David Hayward

“Amazing Grace” cartoon by nakedpastor David Hayward

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It’s always easy to sing “amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me”, but it’s harder to sing, “amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like you!”

Our theologies of grace can be beautiful… until they’re applied.

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57 Responses

  1. RollieB says:

    As Richard Beck posted today, Christianity is just a hobby for many/most(?) Christians, not a way of living. #HobbyChristians

  2. Adam Julians says:

    I think it is easier to be critical of someone else than oneself so I don’t understand about it being harder to sing about you rather than me being a “wretch”.

    Am I missing something here in what you intended David?

  3. Adam Julians says:

    Theologies of grace being beautiful until they are applied? Surely that depends on how they are applied which can be either ugly or beautiful?

  4. In other words, it’s easier to imagine ourselves forgiven than others.

  5. Adam Julians says:

    Oh right.

    So in that sense harder to be forgiving than to be forgiven if I have understood your intention.

  6. Gary says:

    I have yet to meet a Christian who was as good at extending grace as they were at receiving it.

  7. Lauren says:

    David, you offer some exceptionally good critiques that skillfully cut to the core. Thank you. I appreciate your work.

  8. Adam Julians says:

    The leader in the church I attend has incredible grace towards others. He has earned himself an honorary doctorate for philanthropy from a local university for his service to the community.

    It has been my privilege to minister with Christians in Street Pastors, caring, listening and helping, sometimes when faced if not with violent physical conduct, verbal abuse while not retaliating but making the streets a safer place to be on a Friday and Saturday night. Thus earning a good reputation among clubbers and police alike.

    Gary and David either your experiences are vastly different to mine or I am baffled about how you as both clearly intelligent and thoughtful people could brush stroke all Christians as not extending grace as well as they receive it in such a blaze manner.

  9. Caryn LeMur says:

    Hi Adam. May I offer that jokes are often in a broad stroke of the brush.

    My experience is similar to yours. The believers that serve on the streets know how to give grace to others and simply love them they are.

    My experience with church institutions in the States is that David’s cartoon is very accurate. Grace is spoken of in terms of adoration but the reality is so messy that the churches would rather reject then suffer through the process of actual grace in actual action.

    May God give us the courage to have a messy church.

  10. Thanks Lauren.

    Adam… the fact that this is the experience of many is enough reason for me to critique it.

  11. Adam Julians says:

    Dear Caryn,

    I hear what you say about jokes being a “broad stroke of the brush”. If a “Christian” were to respond in kind to the comment “I have yet to meet a Christian who was as good at extending grace as they were at receiving it” and laughter at the expense of Christians with a “broad stroke” here then the would be a couple of things I would predict would happen. I hold to the best predictor of actions in the present being the relevant past and therefore they would take the risk of being perceived as condescending and could have a dialogue that results in them being told to “go fuck themselves” or an expression that carries similar sentiment.

    It’s a credit to Christianity and to any Christians that comment here in the grace so far that has been shown by not responding in kind. It’s also a credit to Christianity that one can satirise the church with impunity.

    David I accept what you say about this being the experience of many giving you reason to critique it and I support your subverting of any church or individual that uses their position to act towards others in any manner not in keeping with a “spirit of brotherhood”. However this implies the same critiquing, deconstructing etc of you and/or what you do being welcomed by you.

    If you were to satirise the president of Syria by drawing a cartoon of him with bubbles coming out of his mouth instead of words then you would be at risk of being taken away by the secret police, beaten senseless and the bones on your hands being broken. If you were to draw a cartoon of a bearded man with a bomb on his head in place of a turban, and lived in Europe, you would be at risk of attempts being made on your life. If in the 70’s in the UK you had a show on TV where you dressed up as the pope and took your clothes off to the tune of “the stripper” you would be at risk of death threats by IRA.terrorists.

    I am sure that you are critiqued, frequently. But again, I would regard it as a credit to Christianity that your life as far as I know it and physical well being is not being threatened.

    I could critique your use of the word “religion” and it would be as valid as your critique. In the UK according to the equality act 2010 the term “religion” refers to any religion or absence of religion. There is a bias towards Christianity being the butt of the joke here and it not being about “religion”. So – false advertising?

    Not wanting to make a point about false advertising, but rather the ease that it is to crituque and to deconstruct and the harder choice being to relate with dignity and equality to “the other”. .

    I appreciate your artwork and what you do here for the vast majority of the time. Please hear that David, but I did find your laughing in affirmation at Gary’s comment a little not in keeping with what I think is the good for the most part that you do here.

    Respect and peace.

  12. Adam, have you heard the parable of the prodigal son and the elder brother? Or the parable of the man who was forgiven much and choked a servant for a penny owed him? And many more indictments against those who don’t like how grace looks on others?

    These parables were told for a reason! They were meant to offend those who thought they were doing a good job being God’s people.

  13. Gary says:

    Adam you are exhausting.

    My comment was based on my experience. It was also meant to “broad stroke” for both humor and to illustrate what I believe to be a flaw in religion in general, and Christianity in particular. I don’t really care if you liked it or not. It was MY comment. It was based on MY perspective. It is reflective of MY experiences. Your long winded essays often speak of how you believe people should treat you and your comments with some sort of grace or respect or something, yet you seem to have no ability to offer the same to others when you don’t agree with what they have posted. Thank you for illustrating with stark clarity EXACTLY the kind of behavior David’s cartoon and post is is speaking of. And your attempt to somehow scold David because he got a kick out of my comment reveals an arrogance beyond belief.

    Sheesh…just grow up already.

  14. Adam Julians says:

    Yes David parables absolutely, something I seek to emulate both in comedy and creative writing. Were they only for “God’s people” and to “offend” not sure about that. The “soil” I would suggest in the parable of the sower would be for any of his listeners I would suggest. Jew, gentile, slave, free, man and woman. I think what he was doing in them was sifting wheat from chaff. Some would take offence, some deified as I understand.

    Lol Gary thanks for staying true to form. I look forward to how creative your next “indomitable vitriol” is as Sabio puts it.

    I particularly like your upper case “EXACTLY” on this occasion. Nice touch. I’m just glad you didn’t call me a “cry baby” when I shared of my church experience that someone else described as me being abused.

    So thanks for having some degree of restraint.

    Oh and as for all the “MY”. If that has been your experience, I am sorry you had to go through all of that, but your experiences are vastly different to mine. That doesn’t make one of us right and the other wrong but our experiences different.

    I would posit that “Christians” like any other humans have degrees of good and evil and of willingness to show grace and receive grace.

    Caryn, for example is someone who I consider to be a graceful person, and unashamed to share about being a follower of Christ. I admire her for her courage and evidence of strength of character in that when it would be easier to be otherwise.

  15. Adam Julians says:

    Edified not deified above

  16. Gary says:

    Adam…

    If you can’t engage…then just leave me and my comments out of your childish attacks and rants. Your game of make a strong passive aggressive (not so passive in fact) attack on my comments and then act like your shit don’t stink when you are called on it has gotten really old. Now…go ahead and make another childish attack on me because I use profanity when I am pissed. It is very much your standard method of evading substance and seeking to present yourself as some beacon of wisdom. Unfortunately for you, it still comes off as a spoiled child crying when he doesn’t get his way.

  17. Adam Julians says:

    Thanks Gary.

  18. Adam Julians says:

    Amidst all the vitriol, Gary has got a valid point about my “shit”. Sometimes my timing can be off and I can be insensitive. So then I need grace towards me when that happens. So am I as willing to show grace when someone is insensitive to me or their timing is off with me?

    It’s an important challenge to face.

    But then if there is to be equality, how is Gary to respond when someone is vitriolic with him?

    How is Sabio to respond when someone is as Evangelical to him as he is about being “religion free”.

    How are you to respond David when someone critiques you as you critique others?

    Something I learned in my masters is that we all have assumptions and preconceived ideas for a variety of reasons. That it is normal and natural to experience discomfort when these ideas are challenged, and it’s how our horizons ar broadened.

    So do we embrace the process or do we attack “the other” when we experience discomfort?

    Seems to me that the world is full of polemical adversity with the latter causing separation.

    Do we want that? Or do we want to be connected?

    Seems to me, on many occasions, the thing hindering connection is choice and blaming “the other”.

  19. Adam Julians says:

    Gary, I see that you perceive me to be “exhausting” and that you think I am not engaging with your comments. I reject the latter for reasons that don’t need explaining and the rest of your options because, well to do so would be playgroundish to respond in kind and you make it clear how much you despise childishness.

    It’s just the same as with Sabio with what he commented about with me coming across as “tiring”.

    I can see that you feel exhausted, it must be exhausting for you to comment as you have. But it’s not just me you are like this with is it. Taking a look back at other comments over time, this is what you do when challenged. When you accuse others of doing what you do, you bring judgement on yourself. This is what happens with anyone of sound mind and reason challenge you as you challenge others.

    I endeavour to treat you with equally an dignity, but frequently you make it difficult for me to do so and I am not here to massage your ego.

    I am sorry you find my contributions here upsetting, I really do. But people are free to comment with or without your approval. They have the same freedom as you. Freedom that I defended for you as a member of the armed forces in NATO, serving honourably and with exemplary conduct. This last sentence would be a sign of arrogance if it were not for me facing accusation, which is what is happening here.

    You are welcome.

  20. Gary says:

    Adam. I’m done wasting time on your tantrums.

  21. Adam Julians says:

    Gary – again, people are free to comment just as you are. People don’t need your approval or need to do what you say. I’ve said this before ans I say it again, I respect your freedom here to comment as you wish, even if it is to be offensive towards me. I fought so you could have that freedom. You don’t have to thank me for that, you have the freedom to choose not to.

    However that same freedom is one that is afforded to me. You talk of taking delight in using profanity and say that you do so to “strongly criticise”. There are times when profanity is used to that end I grant you that. But this is not what you are doing here in my opinion of the truth. I think your use of it on this occasion and other similar occasions of discussion and debate is a weakness. I think you are causing yourself unnecessary upset by communicating that way and I am not surprised you are exhausted.

    Therefore from now on I will be prepared to interact with you that results in you feeling exhausted, and you should prepare for that. In the context of a comedy club, what you have just done would be regarded as a heckle. A comedian might “engage” with that be saying “if I wanted a double act, I would have got a stooge to com up on the stage with me, now shut the fuck up”. That, I perceive would be use of profanity with a strong criticism. It takes courage to get up on a stage and perform comedy. Your last comment takes little courage.

    As for my “shit” this is not me being insensitive or my timing being off with you Gary, it is me engaging in kind. If you can’t cope with that as readily as you give it out to someone, then you have a much bigger problem than any disliking you have to any comment you see here. This would be sad.

    I hope for your sake you will think about it. It doesn’t give me any pleasure whatsoever to type this but the only thing that someone who communicates as you are doing understands is strength.

    From now on I will be prepared to be stronger with you, and you should prepare yourself for that.

  22. Sometimes Adam I get the impression that your feelings are hurt very very easily. I’m sure this must not make things easy for you as a standup comedian.

  23. Adam Julians says:

    David, are you saying this because I expressed hurt recently here? Or because I honour nakedpastor but I am not here to massage your ego? Did you have a problem with that. ’cause if you do then there will be difficulty between us.

    David, I have been vulnerable here with sharing. Like I say in my last church I was spoken to as if I had done wrong by someone who claimed that she was being prophetic and doing what God does. She was being insulting, practicing false prophecy, using God’s name in vain an according to someone here and affirmed by you, being abusive.

    You seemed possibly to be making me out to be “patriarchal” etc recently. As mentioned, if that was true then Caryn was supporting that. I don’t think she was.

    To say an abuse survivor who has expressed experiencing hurt over a relevant being patriarchal is to be as abusive as the leader I have spoken of.

    I an a human being David, cut me and I bleed. By your own admission, you has inadvertently contributed to the cycle of abuse. You have lost a friend on Facebook as ha was angry an you talked, did you not about him thinking you are not qualified to comment about abuse. You expressed sadness at the loss of relationships before, and believing in the hope for change and reconciliation. I took you at your word I am evaluating whether it was and is wise to trust you on issues of abuse or if there has been no change. I am not confident that you are safe enough or that what you say about me and comedy is not a projection of your own lack of ease with addressing issue of abuse and symptom of there being some way to go before you are safe enough for abuse survivors to be around.

    Therefore I shall not dignity your comment about me, hurt and comedy with regarding that with any credibility.

    Rather I will be prepared to engage with you as if you are continuing to perpetuate abuse. And as someone who does that only understands strength, I will be prepared to be stronger with you and you should prepare yourself for that.

    If in future you comment as you just have bearing in mind what has happened recently and the awareness I offer now then I will find it to be about your ego and like I say, that is your problem not mine if you don’t like it that I don’t massage it.

    Do you have a problem with that?

  24. Adam Julians says:

    Oh one more thing that I have just remembered. Parables, a biblical account for the reason that Jesus spoke in parables was for his audience to hear the word in ways that they could hear.

    What you say about them and offence is about you. You are not Jesus and if someone responds to you with offence it could in principle be that you are being a “voice in the wilderness” or, with all due respect, an arsehole, just as you have described the leader in my last church that I have talked about.

  25. Holy this escalated quickly.

  26. Adam Julians says:

    I guess that’s what happens when a boil is lanced so to speak.

    To carry the metaphor further, I hope there can be some healing balm applied now.

    I don’t have any hard feelings towards anyone and I hope we can all move on in a “spirit of brotherhood”.

  27. Personal healing is a priority.

  28. Adam Julians says:

    Sorry to read what you have written there Gary. I guess between us polemical adversity can be expected then. I suggest therefore you prepare yourself to be more exhausted, from your own choosing to continue with a war of words (which is what you are showing to have chosen) with someone ex military who’s 10 year service defending your freedoms was done with honour and exemplary conduct.

    I would bear in mind that a “gentleman” that acts in a way that at one point in time would have been crushing to Caryn and has not learned from that and changed is not safe for abuse survivors to be around and is not a gentleman but a scumbag snake oil salesman masquerading as a gentleman and deserves to be treated as such in protection of the innocent.

    What I learned in the military is that in order to have peace you must train for war.

    I affirm and support wholeheartedly what you say about healing being a priority David.

  29. Gary says:

    You don’t get it Adam. You don’t get to act like a jackass repeatedly and then insist we proceed in a “spirit of brotherhood”. I really don’t give a fuck what you think about my comments. I am tired of your attacks and then your childish games when I challenge your attacks. There really does not need to be any combativeness between us at all. Just grow the fuck up and leave me alone…we are not “brotherhood”. I am simply done with you and your nonsense.

  30. Adam Julians says:

    No Gary, this is what happens when you call someone who has the courage to be vulnerable about that abuse they have suffered an you call them a cry baby. It has happened when you have described gay sex as “gross” or “repulsive” personally and act in a way as such that at one time Caryn would have been crushed by. It happens when you call a honoured ex serviceman a “terrorist apologist” for having a different view to you about military intervention.

    David wrote once “what came first the thug or the theology” saying if someone is spouting out bad theology “please stop” and if bullying “stop now”.

    If you were “done” with me you would stop commenting towards me. Your assertion about that is laughable.

    I’ll leave others to decide whether your conduct is that of a bully or not as described. If I were asked about your comment I would say it is less of a roar if a lion and more a whimper of a pussy.

    Oh by the way I can keep this up all day. I am trained for and experienced in war. Nothing you can throw at me is going to be tougher than anything I have experienced before.

    Your choice, your move.

  31. Adam Julians says:

    As for jackass. Maybe you are right, I used to love that TV show lol.

  32. Adam Julians says:

    Oh one last thing for now. “spirit of brotherhood” is a basic human right in holding to all are born with equality and dignity. If you have a problem with that, it’s not me you have a problem with, it is the universal declaration of human rights and you are in trouble.

    Big trouble.

  33. Gary says:

    This is why you don’t matter Adam…you deliberately lie and twist out of context for a cheap shot. You have no honor and your arrogance is beyond your insight. You have such an elevated opinion of yourself you believe it is your place to tell everyone else what they should think and even seek to chastise them including David. Your behavior is harassment…not conversation. I’ll remind you I had nothing to say about your comments…only sought to defend myself from your attacks. Frankly I don’ believe your long winded essays are worth the time it takes to read them and I don’t anymore. But when you single me and or my comment out by name in one of your arrogant speeches about how wrong I am I push back…simple as that. And why the fuck do you believe you have the right to speak for Caryn or anyone else for that matter? FYI – Caryn and I are quite good friends and she was very much on my side over the incident you are deliberately making a false representation of. This is one of the reasons why you are irrelevant…you are a liar.

    I spoke the truth when I told you I would not waste more time on you. I have not for quite some time tried to engage you in conversation. I will not waste such time on you in the future either. That does not mean I will not respond to your lies and slander. I will gladly rebuke you and defend myself against your tantrums. I guess that can go on until David grows weary of it and bans one or both of us. OR…just a thought…you can actually leave me the fuck alone like I have asked. At this point your behavior is not just childish, but is broaching into actual stalking.

  34. Gary says:

    “Oh one last thing for now. “spirit of brotherhood” is a basic human right in holding to all are born with equality and dignity. If you have a problem with that, it’s not me you have a problem with, it is the universal declaration of human rights and you are in trouble.

    Big trouble.”

    And this is absolute bullshit. Your use of the term in the first place is for condescension and a means to try to control. Well fuck that…your behavior has nothing to do with human rights. You act like an ass you will be treated like one.

  35. Adam: We get along great for a time, and then all of a sudden you take issue and start picking fights. I’m not sure why you do that. And you off-handedly insult those around you as if you want to piss them off so bad that they’ll strike back, only proving that you’re the victim here. It’s really strange behavior, and I have no idea why you do this. It really does alienate people from you.

  36. Adam Julians says:

    David, if this is the conclusion you have come to after all the explaining I have done then its seems that the times that I have put into explaining for your understanding hasn’t been used profitably. Tell me what it is specifically you think I have said to “piss them off” and I will address it. Otherwise I must regard this as you wanting to score points and control.

    As mentioned there has been a game changer for me recently. Someone here described what I had shared as me having been abused. I shared of my upbringing and how specifically how my dominant mother had treated me. When being vulnerable with her, the leader in my last church related to me as if I had been the one doing the mistreating. She said that she was being prophetic and that she was speaking with me as such because “God deals with those in power first and men have the power”. As expressed by the lady giving support, how does a boy have the power with a mother? The previous leader was being sexist, practicing false prophecy, using God’s name in vain and as the lady here sad and you affirmed, was being abusive. when I first shared this story with you, you described this leader as an arsehole. Your actions my friend were just as she had been when you recently gave support to an alleged “patriarchy” that I was being accused of. You then added insult to injury with the comment about hurt and comedy. You have done me wrong in this and you need to hear that.

    I am not angry, I am dissapointed.

    Just recently, you gave support to a comment making me out to be “changing the narrative” and being patriarchal” that on reading was hurtful for me, understandably. I confessed to being insensitive with the timing but I rejected being “patriarchal” and “changing the narrative”. I said to you that when it comes to parables you could be a “voice in the wilderness” or you could be being an arsehole when someone responds to your comment with offense. Your apology last year for “inadvertently” contributing to the cycle of abuse is consistent with the latter.

    I have asked you if you have a problem a couple of times with how I have com across and as such afforded you the opportunity to discuss it then. You didn’t, but now you are talking about pissing people off. My conclusion form that is that the reason you mentioned that now is to be supportive of Gary..

    Gary has continued with this “cry baby” theme. Someone that is vulnerable about abuse, shares and stands up against abuse is not a “cry baby”. As mentioned this recent revelation has been a game changer. The genie is out of the bottle.

    Gary – I make no apology about quoting a basic human right. I have no ill feeling towards you and the offer is there if this is what you would like. But you don’t want it do you? The experience, for me, has been no less difficult than that of the previous leader that I have shared. Therefore according to the standard by which the lady here called that abusive as affirmed by David, you are being abusive. David, the implied support you give Gary now is baffling to me.

    David, I mentioned that I understood why your facebook “friend” was angry with you. I don’t know how I am feeling right now – there are so many emotions going round but it’s not peasant what I am experiencing. You seem to want to put responsibility onto me for all of this for making myself out to be the victim and to be cavalier with insulting people around me as if you and Gary have no ownership in contribution to any difficulty here.

    I think David when it comes to abuse you still have a way to go to be safe enough to be around abuse survivors. Your admission was of inadvertently contributing to abuse last year. I think what you are doing is projecting your own issue of not yet having addressed that. I do not feel safe around you with this, rather with what I shared it being just like is was in my previous church. This has always been the case with you when this issue has come up. Always, every time. Caryn suggested that Saeed take a break from ministering to people because of abuse for 5 years which you affirmed. I honestly think (and I hate to say this) it might be time for you to consider your position on your involvement with the abused and abuse survivors.

    I thing your a good guy David but even good guys have their “shadow” as Jung put it.

    As this is not being resolved, no healing balm between us in how tings have gone here and is hindering, not helping me with my journey I will leave it there and will be considering my involvement here when it comes to the sharing of abuse experienced and returning like for like with the expectations of conduct.

    This shall be my last comment on this thread.

  37. You need to understand Adam that I did not mean this as an insult but an observation. I’m trying to offer insight in how to function in healthy ways in a community or discussions such as this one.

  38. Adam Julians says:

    I wasn’t going to comment further but as there has been a change in the tone of how you have come across to one which I think is more conducive to healthy dialogue David I will dignify that by engaging with it.

    David, with all due respect, there was no need for you to comment that I need to understand what you are trying to do. I get it. I challenge whether you have been achieving that aim or, (by your own admission previously) you have been contributing to the cycle of abuse.

    If latter is the way you are treating someone then has the option of deferring to you and letting themselves be abused by you. Alternatively the might be abusive towards. Neither of these are healthy.

    In any healthy person, if this is the way you treat them it will result in resentment, difficulty in the relationship them setting and maintaining boundaries with you, loss of intimacy and distancing of relationship. It may lead to loss of relationship.

    You “critique” others, it’s what you do. You have admitted that in doing so you must be prepared to be crituqued. Remember your cartoon with the two characters on their high horse?

    As you have mentioned, you have control over what happens here. Whether what you do is fostering to your intentions or being like progressive abusive progressive leaders that you satirise is obvious to anyone with a modicum or discernment or a seasoning of common sense.

    It’s great that you have the intentions that you do – but the road to hell as the saying goes is paved with good intentions. Sayings get to be sayings because there is wisdom in them.

    You talked about parables and offending. What if you feel offended at someone who speaks a parable to you? In other words, you portray yourself as a voice in the wilderness speaking to the evil in the city.

    Who are you going to listen to if it is you that is perpetuating evil?

    Please think about it.

  39. Adam Julians says:

    Oh – and I forgive you for the wrong you have done me.

  40. Gary says:

    Adam you being a crybaby has nothing to do with you having been abused or being vulnerable. It has to do with you being a jerk in the way you interact with people and then crying about it when they push back. Painting yourself as a victim may feel good to you…but it fools no one.

  41. Adam Julians says:

    The opinion you express about people Gary are not the people. They are about you. Your diatribe is unsubstantiated.

    Unsupported assertions are weak arguments. The burden of proof is on the one making the proposition.

    You have been and are being abusive for clear reasons given. If David continues to support what you are doing either directly or implied then he is supporting abuse and therefore doing what he has aplogised for having done previously.

    For your Information:

    David posted “The Lasting Supper: a Statement & Apology
    BY NAKEDPASTOR DAVID HAYWARD • JULY 22, 2015
    I’m sorry… I accept responsibility… and admit that TLS might not feel safe… for those who have endured severe emotional abuse.”

    From a description of abuse:

    “How do I know if I am experiencing abuse?
    There are different kinds of abuse.
    Emotional abuse
    The person abusing you may:
    • belittle you, or put you down
    • blame you for the abuse or for arguments
    • deny that abuse is happening, or play it down”
    http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/abuse/Pages/domestic-violence-against-men.aspx

    As a patron of nakedpastor I endeavour to engage in healing, fostering the healthy community and demolishing arguments and pretenses that perpetuate abuse, whether that are intentionally doing so or otherwise. Satirising the pretentious and abusers to take away their power to abuse.

  42. Adam Julians says:

    Oh by the way Gary – you lied about a false statement being made about Caryn – proof below. This makes you both a liar and a hypocrite.

    Caryn LeMur
    JULY 21, 2015 AT 4:11 PM
    I privately contacted David Hayward, and the gentleman that made the ‘repulsive’ and/or ‘gay sex is gross’ remarks to ensure I was recalling the correct event.
    In the case that I experienced… personally found same sex acts repulsive and/or gross.The gentleman made it clear before, and after, that it was his personal reaction/opinion.

    Caryn LeMur
    JULY 20, 2015 AT 11:20 AM
    I am ok with being told that I am repulsive, and that sort of thing. Yet… there was a time when that was crushing…

    Furthermore – you have even been on record as using “gross” in reference to homosexual acts.

    Gary
    JULY 22, 2015 AT 5:09 AM
    I completely accept that same sex acts are not gross to individuals who are gay or bi.

  43. Gary says:

    And you wonder why I said you act like a jackass? Caryn and I have had many discussions about that situation and my statements are correct. You are stripping comments out of context for attack purposes and to do so makes you a man of no character. Stop obsessing and making repeated stalking posts. You demonstrate your crybaby pattern every time you respond excessively and repeatedly. Seriously dude…get the fuck over yourself.

  44. Adam Julians says:

    Actually – did you miss in your enthusiasm for your next diatribe that I actually found the jackass comment funny? Love those guys and the TV show lol.

    Getting back to being serious – your latest offering is a continuation of a theme of yours of unsubstantiated opinion and therefore weak argument.

    You used either gross or repulsive to describe same sex acts. In context or not is irrelevant. Caryn responded by saying that there was a time that if she were to be called repulsive it would have been crushing for her. This is true as stated.

    Therefore this substantiates my above claim and subverts your claim.

    The rest of your comment is an extension to a continuing diatribe and would be beneath dignity for both of us to engage with it.

    Your latest comment does not distract from the reality that you are being emotionally abusive again for reasons given and made clear. I suggest you take ownership of it or face the consequences of your actions.

  45. Adam Julians says:

    Consequences bring further difficulty and exhaustion fro you, that is.

  46. Gary says:

    Adam I’m beginning to think perhaps you have some sort of mental disorder. I actually work in the mental health field and I don’t say this simply to insult…I really am beginning to believe it. Of course the point you don’t seem capable of grasping is that I have never stated that Caryn (or anyone else like her) is repulsive. Your implication is a clear deception. For the record…I am not gay. In fact I am as far opposite of gay as it is possible to be I think. My personal preference, including what I find to be appealing and what I find to be repulsive, would therefore naturally be typical of my orientation. The same is true for one of my long time best friends who happens to be gay…he finds the thought of sexual activity with a woman to be personally repulsive. The fact that you are seeking to twist this conversation into some sort of an attack on homosexuals continues to confirm you are a liar. Seriously dude…fuck off.

  47. Adam Julians says:

    Oh by the way Gary my memory is a bit shakey – was it you that believed that all men need to be demonised? I remember the conversation but can’t remember if it was you that was most vociferous about this or not.

  48. Adam Julians says:

    Lol Gary Gary Gary, playing the mental disoder card. ROFLOL.

    Well lets see, who do you think has been objectively quoting facts and who expressing unsubstantiated opnion? Once again another diatribe. I will stick to it not being dignigifed for you or me to engage in it.

    Thanks for giving me that thing about mental illness – it amused me.

    Hilarious! Better than your Jackass comment and that;s saying something! lol

  49. Adam Julians says:

    In actual fact I think I will leave it there lol. I’m surprised, didn’t think I would end up laughing with this conversation – thanks for that.

    Thanks for all your comments Gary – it;s been interesting in a Gary way lol. At least I was able to make you laugh on one occasion by calling what you do that lol.

    All the best!

  50. Adam Julians says:

    Lol and “attack on homosexuals” well there is at least one person who regarded you comment as homophobic.Whether it was or not, there was an issue of “congenial conversation” or as some would say, abuse.

    NAKEDPASTOR DAVID HAYWARD · JULY 22, 2015
    “I am aware of only one issue regarding LGBTQ. This was when a man.. confessed in a post that he finds it personally repulsive when he thinks of himself having sex with a man. He was called ‘homophobic’ by someone in TLS. I (and others) spoke with the gentleman, and we agreed that even though his feelings are valid, in the future a better word than ‘repulsive’ might be chosen to express them for the sake of congenial communication.”

    Lol mental illness indeed. lol.

  51. RollieB says:

    Gary and Adam are confirming the meaning of the cartoon David posted above… oh, the irony.

  52. Gary says:

    Thank you for confirming my suspicions. The obsessive repetitive posting is a dead give away. I really did mean fuck off. Your lies and spin are so far out of control as to be apparent to all and I will not reply to you again.

  53. Gary says:

    RollieB I will kindly remind you of just one fact…it was my comment that was challenged, not the other way around. Adam is obsessed with confronting everyone’s comments and seeking to chastise and/or shame them whenever he disagrees as if he is the hall monitor here…LOL. Once in a while I get an itch to challenge such obnoxious behavior. That itch is sufficiently scratched. 😉

  54. Adam Julians says:

    Rollie,

    Maybe, but if what you say is true, then it is true for everyone.

    I guess we did put on a show hey? Isn’t humanity “interesting” sometimes. I find it fascinating to watch the campaigns for rhe US presidency.

    It isn’t easy to show grace and sometimes is costly and tough. If we receive grace, I.e. have our needs met in the way we need them then perhaps that is easier than showing. But then at the same time sometimes it can be difficult to let love, truth, healing in and welcome healthy community if that has not been your experience.

    So taking risks either way when one is naturally attached to pleasure and adverse to suffering with one’s ego.

    Right?

  55. Adam Julians says:

    I bet you will reply to me again Gary lol.

    Time will tell and the truth will out.

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