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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1079 comments
" Iadd my vignette because you are not yet understanding the picture Julie has offered. People with such disorders do not respond healthily to “encouragement and moral support” so that they will guard "against depression and move toward healing
I am so glad you chimed in. we have crossed paths on other blogs. I so appreciate your input because you have worked so hard to be healthy and healing and have helped me so much with your insights.
.You know what has blown me a way about this entire thread? That Julie has a bonafide diagnosis. Do folks not realize how rare that is? That should stand out to her ex’s defenders like a neon flashing sign of “oh no, what have I gone along with!!!” But it doesn’t for so many. That gives me chills. Perhaps they do not really understand what that means for the lives of those the NPD is after. Perhaps they don’t care?
So many people live around bonafide NPD types and their lives are miserable and few can understand it because they use a rationality that has nothing to do with how the NPD operates and even helps an NPD play their grand chess game better. Very rarely do people they get a bonafide diagnosis because most NPD’s won’t seek help or admit they need it. It is always someone else who has the problem. Not them. And even with the diagnosis, the NPD is protected because wrecking havoc—whether emotional, spiritual, mental abuse is not a crime. Even when done to their own kids.
I have seen mega churches adore their narcissist on stage and shower him with accolades, money, etc and have NO CLUE what they are supporting. It sends chills down my spin when I think of those days. And they are still operating strongly teaching other young men how to be like them.
As I read this quote, I was reminded of some of the reactions I had seen on this thread:
“Groups also have a [mob mentality] problem, best described by Wilfred Bion in an oddly written but influential book, Experiences in Groups. In it, Bion, who practiced group therapy, observed how his patients would unconsciously coordinate their actions to defeat the purpose of therapy. In discussing the ramifications of this, Bion observed that effective groups often develop elaborate structures, designed to keep their sophisticated goals from being derailed by more primal group activities like gossiping about members and vilifying non-members.”
From Clay Shirky, “Why I Just Asked My Students To Put Their Laptops Away”
https://medium.com/@cshirky/why-i-just-asked-my-students-to-put-their-laptops-away-7f5f7c50f368
(which is largely irrelevant to this thread, apart from its discussion of group behaviour and unconscious behavioural influences)
Patrice, I am so sorry for what you have survived. You really do get it! The legal system and even skilled professionals are fooled. They are that good. Obviously, church people who are looking for a leader and see what they want to see, are of course not going to pick up on it. I think once you have experienced this, then you become highly sensitive to sniffing it out in people. Again, I am very sorry for what you endured. That makes my blood boil for you and your siblings. Evil. Pure evil.
David Anderson, I would like to be an addendum to Julie’s comment just above.
Some of your words are helpful but you sound clueless about the interpersonal devastation caused by people with NPD characteristics. Maybe it’s because you are looking at it from the disordered person’s perspective while sitting in the clinician chair. Maybe it’s because you haven’t met the full-blown disorder in your office since they do not see themselves as needing help. I daresay you’ve not lived around/with such a person.
My pastor-father had the characteristics of NPD plus he enjoyed hurting his family. At no time did he see himself wrong, and no one in his various parishes saw it either. Later in his life, he allowed that he’d been immodest towards me (years of overt sexual abuse) but throughout my life until a month before his death, he also repeated how very sad it was that “God made you [Patrice] for suffering”. (I speak only of one aspect done me and nothing about my sibs.)
I add my vignette because you are not yet understanding the picture Julie has offered. People with such disorders do not respond healthily to “encouragement and moral support” so that they will guard “against depression and move toward healing”.
Certainly it would be your clinical job to practice empathy/helpfulness, if Julie’s ex or my father came into your office. These are the requirements of your profession. But that would slowly increase pressure towards beginning self-honesty, and that is the one thing that can’t be done by those who carry entrenched versions of NPD. I say “can’t” because I’ve been unfortunate to meet a few of these types and they have truly, honestly not been response-able. It’s horribly sad, but even more horrible is that they make others around them suffer for it. And that is what the greatest concern is here. Everyone around them are deceived and many are eventually hurt, cross community.
So what then? Given that their need pushed them into attention-getting and power positions, what then? What then for their communities who suffer devastation or complicity? When they push off for greener pastures only to repeat themselves, what then? And these particular examples also claim God on their side.
I don’t think you understand and I am sorry about that because this is your field, even though a specialization, and we do need expertise.
I think interaction with a Narcissist (from my personal experience) is the closest thing to evil I will ever know.
They are a menace to society and their damage and destruction is far reaching.
I do not think my words are too strong. I think they accurately match the carnage.
Heaven help those that ever cross them or make them look bad….if they pull back the curtain from the all knowing and powerful Oz and dare to whisper….“I think you’re a fraud and I see straight through you.” They will hunt you down in every effort to take you out.
I am not talking about people with “narcissistic traits” or those that are “stressed under circumstances and behaving poorly.” No, I am only speaking of individuals with full blown diagnosis from a well respected clinical psychologist , MMPI, hours of one on one clinical sessions, and another test I can’t remember….who said she had never given that full blown diagnosis before in her 25 years of practice. She explained she had many times said patients had “traits,” but to be given an Axis II diagnosis of NPD is extremely significant. She advised me to get a great lawyer and therapist for me and my kids to weather the endless waves of tsunami ’s that would be coming my way…again and again and again. I am the Narcissistic Target and he will not, cannot let me go.
This leads me to the issue of negligence on the part of the Emergent leadership/authors/speaking publishing of the minor Christian celebrity circles for allowing this to be swept under the rug. Wise and older leaders author(s) of this movement or “conversation” or whatever you want to call it, KNEW of this illness and did nothing except perpetuate the rationalization and lies that I was the crazy one, and he the suffering spouse.
This is NOT about the details of my divorce but about spiritual abuse by a few and the Pathology that led to the Thugology in the resulting context of really bad Theology.