Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?

David Anderson,

Your comments are one reason I gave up on therapists/psychologists. NPD’s do know right from wrong. Their lack of empathy might be genetic or from childhood but they also know how to mirror right behavior. In other words, their entire lives are built on “faking it” when it benefits them. And it is easy for them to find “healing” because they have no real conscience so nothing they have done to others really bothers them all that much UNLESS it makes them look bad.

Their lives are a continual circle of using people to get their supply. They could always “fake compassion” and stop using others.

Bob, that is an especially fair-minded question and I appreciate you asking about the other party. There is something called “Reactive Narcissistic Regression” which has been proven to occur when client’s emotional stability is disrupted by a major life crisis. (It’s also sometimes called transient or short term narcissism.) In other words, while fighting for divorce and custody, people naturally become excessively self-absorbed in their own protection for a stage. This amplifies their negative traits, but often (not always) their behavior returns to less damaging or more acceptable levels post-trauma.

Regardless of what type of disorder is being alleged here, I would suggest someone who has manifested narcissistic traits would benefit from enrolling in their own therapy with a qualified, trained counselor they feel they can trust. Their goal similarly would be to develop better coping skills and find self-satisfaction. They would also be helped by building their own networks to support their ongoing mental health.

It’s important to speak against mental health stigma in forums like this as well. NPD is a disorder that is thought to be conditioned in childhood and may even have genetic links. People do not choose it for themselves and it often causes them harm. Also, it is disappointing to me to see some people casually speculating about NPD and promoting stereotypes which are dehumanizing to its sufferers. Even if an individual was first diagnosed with NPD in childhood and has lived with it their entire life, this diagnosis should not be taken as evidence they are a criminal. Rather it makes them deficient in empathy. Other evidence of course may suggest a person with NPD has committed criminal acts, but many people who exhibit narcissistic traits do not commit crimes. Police officials, judges and other legal advocates are trained to ensure all those with mental health disorders receive a fair hearing that requires the same proof of guilt required of any other party.

I am traveling this week and then will be returning to my part-time practice, but I will leave you with these final thoughts. Supporters of either spouse might focus on providing encouragement and moral support. Research has shown that after a sometimes lengthy initial grieving stage, positive support for the future (rather than solely recycling past trauma) can help both parties guard against depression and move toward healing.

While former spouses will never see eye to eye on the other’s health, our hope can be that both establish clear boundaries that cleanly separate their lives from each other. Rather than continue the accuse-and-defend run around which can never be fully resolved, both parties seek to find their own respective peace and move on leaving the other to do the same. It is important that at some point both parties move onto focusing more on their new lives than on their past life with their former spouse. Constantly analyzing one’s ex-partner and recounting their misdeeds keeps them unfortunately connected rather than allowing them to flourish in new separate lives.

The spouses will usually choose support among different and possibly opposing groups of people as seems to be the case here. But the world is usually big enough for them to both have their own respective communities. My guess is Julie would love to live in that place where she experiences enough regular support and energizing new life experiences that she barely thinks about her former husband. She may even be relieved to move into new interactions with some of you that do not center in lengthy online discussions that connect her day-after-day to the person she has said she is trying to separate from.

While Julie did not receive support that worked with her the first time round, I sincerely wish her better local support in this stage of life. And as Bob’s question implied, it also benefits everyone including Julie if her former spouse finds support and healing too.

Pat Green, thanks for your transparency. I have probably given a few terrible impromptu “sermons” I wasn’t qualified to give too. I learn as I age to stick to my own field and leave lectures to people who went to seminary.

Julie, I am not religious but have experienced many pastors to be well meaning people who lack the training to offer complete and ongoing mental health support. It sounds like this group tried in their own way, but failed to have much impact on your problems. I wish it would’ve played out differently for you.

RelStuPhd Strawmen have never bothered me too much. :)

Observer, I visited the page to add the small benefit of my training and career experience. As Julie pointed out, I don’t see the moderator here claiming to be a psychologist. But yes, I do recognize the limits of an online forum like this.

I can see how a forum like this might generate a few psychological benefits, but I can also (with no disrespect to the host) see the differences between this forum and a guided mediation.

This forum is a little bit like what happens in a counselor’s office in some small way because the counselor doesn’t collect and weigh evidence from both parties involved. This is because the counselor is not there to make a call about who is telling the truth or who is to blame. They let the client get everything they want off their chest. This includes theories, accusations, and feelings. Everything is welcome and nothing is censored. Counselors create a space like this because their goal isn’t to establish judgment. Their goal is about client adjustment. In other words counselors try to help the client build coping skills and achieve more self satisfaction.

I think some of the comments here aim at supporting Julie in this way. Their primary goal is hearing someone who doesn’t feel heard. I would also acknowledge that Julie speaking up in this forum did in fact mediate several apologies from two or three people who independently gossiped about her.

But yes, Observer, you are right to suggest that mediations are different than what is happening here as well. Formal mediations require two estranged parties to give their permission and to choose to participate. Also, in a mediation counselors work from court records, bank account statements, and custody reviews. They are not guided by personal testimony (or they would just go round and round platforming opinions and never end). Also to speak frankly, there’s been quite a bit of speculation from uninvolved parties that most professionals would consider distracting to the purpose of a mediation. Mediation is designed to be a safe place where private matters are dealt with by only the parties involved (although those parties are often supported by one or two trained mediators).

I think most readers are objective enough to see that what is happening in this forum is its own unique thing. It’s not psychological treatment. It certainly doesn’t adhere to the APA’s Ethical Principles of Psychologists and Code of Conduct. It is also not a court. There is no presentation of evidence from both parties, there are no legally-appointed juries or judges, and very little eyewitness testimony is presented. The intention here is not to make a legal judgment. This instead strikes me as a sounding board that can help a pained spouse be heard and to feel supported in moving on.

Tim,

Thanks for those case numbers and full names. That might be a good start. Maybe I will see if I or someone else in that region can look into this in more detail.

Thanks.

Lurking Liberal,

I posted links to the public summaries of Tony’s court cases in the comments above.
Here they are again:

Tony Jones’ and Julie McMahon’s court cases have gone from 2008 – 2014. They’re protected by an image verification system.

http://pa.courts.state.mn.us/Search.aspx?ID=200andNodeID=174,151,160,131,132,146,111,175,161,191,176,147,133,119,134,120,121,113,162,1303,1301,1305,1302,1306,122,178,192,179,135,193,163,180,164,148,114,136,137,183,184,138,115,165,154,155,123,139,140,141,185,124,186,194,142,187,166,188,143,167,125,144,189,116,195,117,157,126,168,1491,1492,1493,169,158,170,127,159,128,145,171,129,197,172,190,181,182,153,156,177,173,150,152,11810,11811,11812,11813,11815,11822,11823,11817,11818,11819,11820,1304,13041,13042,13043,13044,1961,1962,1308,11201,11202,13045,11203andNodeDesc=All%20MNCIS%20Sites%20-%20Case%20Search Search for Case Number 27-FA-08-5921 for
In the Marriage of Anthony Hawthorne Jones and Julie Anne McMahon Jones 2008-2014

http://pa.courts.state.mn.us/Search.aspx?ID=200andNodeID=174,151,160,131,132,146,111,175,161,191,176,147,133,119,134,120,121,113,162,1303,1301,1305,1302,1306,122,178,192,179,135,193,163,180,164,148,114,136,137,183,184,138,115,165,154,155,123,139,140,141,185,124,186,194,142,187,166,188,143,167,125,144,189,116,195,117,157,126,168,1491,1492,1493,169,158,170,127,159,128,145,171,129,197,172,190,181,182,153,156,177,173,150,152,11810,11811,11812,11813,11815,11822,11823,11817,11818,11819,11820,1304,13041,13042,13043,13044,1961,1962,1308,11201,11202,13045,11203andNodeDesc=All%20MNCIS%20Sites%20-%20Case%20Search Search for Case Number 27-CO-13-8209 for
Anthony Hawthorne Jones vs Julie McMahon Jones 2013-2014

As far as I remember, the online records contained broad event and cost summaries only.