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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
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I want to share a side note to this situation with people who might not understand how it works with custody. Phyllis Chessler wrote a very interesting book about how wrong public perceptions are about this issue.
Most men do not go for full custody. So, the ones that do, are often percieved by the courts as automatically being great dads because they want their children full time and there must be a reason why. Therefore about 70% of dads who actually go for full custody, win. And it is a grueling fight. So the mother starts out with this impression of the dad by the court when she fights. She ends up having to “prove” herself. And she usually has less resources to do so.
Most courts do not recognize narcissism/sociopathy— they mostly look at outward stuff like abuse, neglect, etc. And most narcissists are adept at passing the psyche evals, etc. It is a real problem and I am glad Julie fought it.
Narcissist want their children for specific reasons that have to do with their own image/credibility. They see their children as extensions of themselves and not as unique individuals even though they present something totally different in public. Life with a narcissistic parent is hell for kids.
I will say this: The narcissist is getting his “reward” now on earth. He/She is able to fool a lot of people a lot of the time. The only way to deal with them is to NOT deal with them. So custody situations becomes a long time hell where everything must be documented and catalogued. I have several friends dealing with this same situation right now. Some, too, are pastors ex wives.
Pastors are often actors who have a stage persona. Very few people can get real close to them to truly know them even though they think they do. They do not understand they are interacting with a “persona” who is a great sincere guy. They have no clue.
I had no idea the “mentally ill” tactic was so widespread in Christendom until I started doing some training/consulting stuff with megas years ago. I recommend people really take a close look at this one it is more prevelant than people think. It was bizarre how people would be written off by the “Great men of God” declaring in their fake humility voice in some high level meetings: She (sometimes “he” is emotionally unstable. Or “she is close to a nervous breakdown”, etc.
And you know what? Folks believe it because the “great man” said so and it serves as a perfect tactic. People instinctively avoid that person and if that person shows any outward signs of anxiety, anger or even crying it serves to affirm their diagnosis.
It is pure evil. Satan is delighted.
No one thought to delve into it and find the REAL reason why the great men of God had a problem with so and so. They were simply declared “unstable”. Of course it was never declared in public because that could bring a lawsuit. It was declared in specific settings where the whisper campaign would make sure it got out.
Deception is pure evil. It is harder to counteract and prove. And they know it.
Since those times I had done a ton of reading, research, etc on trends in Christendom and I am convinced that over the last 30 years more and more narcissists are now attracted to ministry where they have instant audiences, power, etc and are paid for it. Where else could you get such a gig that quick?
I have seen so much evil done to people in the Name of Jesus from the institutions/parachurch orgs/ evangelism that when someone tells me they are a pastor my first reaction is not what they might expect. My first reaction is “beware”.
I’ve been following this conversation from a distance after being turned onto it by Bill Kinnon a couple of days ago. All I can say is… wow.
On the one hand, I feel sick to my stomach to find out that yet more highly esteemed Christian public figures have major skeletons in their closets. I know very little of Tony Jones – I was vaguely aware of the divorce from internet reports – but I have read books by at least one other EV leader, and had some admiration for them. Another bubble burst.
On the other hand, being something of a realist when it comes to human nature, I’m not really all that surprised. Disappointed, but not surprised. People are people, and people with controlling and narcissistic tendencies tend to gravitate towards positions of authority and celebrity. In the absence of any kind of meaningful accountability, cue train wreck.
It really is about time people stopped being so damned naive about human nature and the lengths to which people will go to protect money, power and status. I find Christians (and I’ve been one for 30 years and still am) among the most naive in this regard.
Oh, and I get sick and tired of being told every time I share anything on Facebook about Driscoll and his appalling behaviour to stop being critical, that I have no right to say anything unless I’m part of his church, that I’m being divisive, that God has used him to do a lot of good and we should be thankful for that. My answer, at this point, is “bullshit”.
Finally, let me just say thank you to Julie McMahon for your honesty and courage in using this thread to shine some public light on your story. Reading your comments gives me hope that a day will come when all that is hidden will be made known, when all the liars and deceivers and narcissists and manipulators and abusers will have nowhere to hide and will be forced to face up to and own the horror of what they have done. You might call it judgement day. Major kudos to you, Julie, and I wish you and your kids well in your journey of healing and renewed life and freedom.
Thinking about the six people listed above — as well as many other authors who have blogged with or shared a stage with Tony Jones — it seems to me they have only two options. They can either tell themselves that Julie is lying, or they can believe she’s telling the truth. Choosing the latter means admitting that they themselves have been duped…had…bamboozled. That makes one option much easier. Just restating what Julie said…such a sad situation.
Julie, I’m also glad it went well for you today.
Thank you, and I absolutely will!