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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1080 comments
Scott Jones, here’s the problem. You said:
[At this point I should say I think a lot of things that have been said about Tony are untrue and unfair. I don’t claim to know every detail of the story, but I know Tony and others involved pretty well. I’m pretty uncomfortable with some things that have been said, but that’s not what I want to talk about…]
We’re in a conversation about spiritual abuse — the process by which people who have spiritual authority (pastors, preachers, priests, etc.) take advantage of that authority to do harm to those entrusted to their care. The harm arises from an imbalance of power in the pastor-congregant relationship that leaves a congregant vulnerable and defenseless.
Julie’s experience was exactly that, only multiplied by six, because there were six people in positions of spiritual authority involved in the effort to control her. She’s asking for a long-delayed apology from the 5 of them who haven’t yet offered one.
That’s the conversation. At one time, apparently, it was easy to erase her comments and spread rumors about her that she had no way to confront. I’m not surprised that you don’t want to talk about the things that have been said that make you uncomfortable because you think they’re “untrue and unfair.”
Okay, so don’t talk about them. Talk instead about what exactly Julie and all the others who have been called crazy and pushed out of polite society should do to restore their good names. Talk about the obligation of preachers and spiritual leaders to be transparent and straightforward in their dealings with those they presume to lead. Talk about what you want the remedy to be when they aren’t. That’s the conversation.
Scott, as a descendant of the Towne sisters, who were among the witches hung, I don’t appreciate you dragging my family into your argument.
Scott Jones, I’m read your long comment and concluded that if a jackass appears, it must be because God needed a jackass, and so raised one up. Or maybe that’s not quite what you meant. ;-)
I suggest you scroll back up to the top of the page and read all the comments, because you evidently haven’t done that, or people wouldn’t have to go back and quote things said earlier in the same thread.
I find that it seems to bear repeating / clarifying that the point is not to get Tony locked up in jail. The point is to call attention to the gaslighting / silencing / theological balderdash tactics that the EV leaders went to in response to the situation. Since Colina has stopped posting, it’s nice of you to take on that line of protest to illustrate some of the tactics that have been used to silence victims.
So Scott, you haven’t outright accused Julie of lying, just that you don’t believe her because there’s no arrest record (because of course every felony results in a public record) and saying that you know many of the people involved, but not Julie, and you’re a friend of Tony’s. And on that basis, you’ve made up your mind to tell people here that they should shut up because they aren’t omniscient and couldn’t possibly be correct. Because, of course, if Tony had done these things, he’d lead with that information when making new friends. Makes sense to me. Did Tony point out this discussion so you could defend him?
Scott Jones and anyone else for the record. I tried discrete decorum FOR YEARS and was silenced. I tried seeking reconciliation and discernment, and through who I THOUGHT were people of God and leaders who would discern the mess and right the wrongs….shut down….silenced, spun as crazy. Their common bond? Book sales, speaking circuit and minor celebrity status.
Hi Scott Jones. Nice to meet you. Are you calling me a liar? Do you need to come to my house and read a 22 page psychological evaluation? Would you like to read the discernment letter written by Doug Pagitt, Brad Cecil, Mile King, Mark Scandrette and Brian McLaren and Danielle Shroyer from Dallas, Texas where Danielle was the Pastor of Courtney’s home and emergent church? I will show you the MRI with the Doctor notes and you can see the tear on the X-ray I have. We can read allowed together, if you wish, and in round, the custody evaluation detailing the emotional, physical, and spiritual abuses. You can call the psychologist we as a family see weekly who specializes is dealing with and learning ways to manage narcissistic personality disordered individuals. We can read the sex emails together too. BUT somehow none of that will make a difference. You drank the kool aid. I’m SURE you’re hearing fantastical spin but at the end of the day one has a serious mental illness and the other not. Co morbid traits of sadistic, porn and sexual maladjustment. Why would I ever make that up? Don’t you dare allude to my making up lies. This is my story. It happened. It is the truth whether you care to accept it or not. I found a safe and supportive place to tell it so shove off because you are just here to try and defend something you know nothing about. Spiritual abuse took place. It’s wrong. The people involved should apologize. This has little to nothing to do with your friends who were BOTH married at the time..you interlopers keep bringing him up. It’s about people in power abusing their position. Thou dost protest too much my dear, about someone’s character. Character speaks for itself. It’s my dads birthday today. He died in 2011. Amazing man of faith brimming with integrity. 52 years married to my mom and they had 7 kids. I feel like he is present in all of this. He referred to my abuser simply as “pond scum.” My kids are WELL aware of the issues and this we work on it weekly in therapy openly and naming it for what it is. Peace Scott Jones. If you live I’m minneapolis come over for show and tell. I will NOT be called a liar by someone whose clueless to the issues. BTW anyone can seem nice until you disagree or cross them…you’ll see