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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1079 comments
@ David As I reread my comment (which I will repost here), the edit button appeared. I did the edit. Then what I now see is unedited and I am listed as “undefined”. Since I could not find the delete button, could you delete the comment by “undefined”?
do not often write on open forums because of certain life circumstances. I will start here by quoting from two previous comments, hoping I can get the format correct.1. @Julie McMahon September 27, 2014 at 9:28 pm
“…this is a collective story of people who have been kicked to the side, marginalized and silenced. It’s not okay and we are speaking up!”
2. @Becky Garrison September 28, 2014 at 1:59 am
" But that experience enables me to recognize the patterns in Mars Hill and Emergent lickety-split…"
I have been reading the comments here for about two weeks and following the Mars Hill situation for 2 months. Perhaps oddly, and then again not odd at all, I have come to recognize that some of my struggles are echoed in what I have read. I do not have a personal paper trail. I do have papers and books which have helped me to understand my history of being sidelined and silenced. I first saw patterns in 2000 as I was reading books related to “church change”. The patterns went back to a previous church in a previous time. I began to know experientially the burdens and shaping of these methods somewhere around 1986. There was a definite cognitive dissonance and somehow God opened my eyes enough that I took steps to separate from the growing misinformation and group think. I could not depart from the situation and would remain in it at that church for about 10 more years. It was actually an opportunity to see certain patterns at work and to know God’s sustaining faithfulness in a difficult situation.
The wrestlings and confusions have come and gone. There have been years when I thought the pressures had been left behind. Those were times of respite and refreshment. Then I would recognize that the pressures to conform had returned. To be seeking to know God and to walk with Him simply, trusting Him with outcomes, and beginning to speak only to be told that was being unsubmissive, rebellious, independent, negative. For a few years those comments would shut me up. In God’s good providence, I read from the books of Christian men long dead. I was at a time when I could not trust my reading of the Bible. I was again confused. And then I knew that if I simply read the Bible, there was a real possibility that I would be pushed by God to speak and ask questions more openly. Almost 3 years ago, I decided to begin reading the Scriptures and simply trust God with whatever happened. I was not shamed or guilted into doing this at that time. God was graciously opening my eyes to my need. Within the month my husband and I met with the pastor with some of my questions about specifics at the church. We met with him again a month later. There was token understanding., and a figurative patting on the head. And then I saw the pattern (like Becky wrote).
The patterns go beyond Mars Hill and emergent. Emergent and Mars Hill are simply more recent than what I was influenced by and which began around 30 years ago. What could have led to this?
I am grateful for stumbling upon these comments. My now grown children were raised while I was struggling and standing, searching and speaking, being silent. Maybe the time has come for these issues to become open. I pray and am trusting God for direction, for timing, for listening, for speaking,to making restitution, for remembering my times of repentance for my own complicity, for repenting as needed.
“but if others want people to hear and honor her story, some (again, not you) of the stuff said here just became turbulence.
So, no. I wasn’t even “unwittingly” shutting things down. In fact, many of Julie’s advocates were getting in the way of the very things they wanted. "
Hi Nathan, I grow so weary of this. People cannot be listened to because they do not say things “right” or with the right a"tone"? I have heard that over and over again from the Evangelical Industrial Complex. It is just another way to dismiss the ugliness of what was done to someone. We are hearing about some serious spiritual, physical and emotional abuse here using the Name of Jesus in a nefarious way.
What sort of turbulence do you think “viper” and “white washed tomb”, caused?
“Not to put too fine a point on matters, we do a tremendous disservice to the cause of justice by suggesting that those who have done the silencing have some right to expect any sort of deference when called upon to answer for their misdeeds. To do so would be an insult to the harmed, most especially when those doing the harming assume the position of ministers and champions of the Gospel. Answering these accusations with anything less than humility and grace only furthers the harm they have done.”
Here is what I do not understand about any of this: Why is it that these people think our Lord does not love truth? And in these situations, getting to truth is a messy business. I can no longer be about sweeping deception under the rug. I can no longer be about the false teaching that seeking truth is gossip or undermines Christs reputation. I now see that thinking as the exact opposite of what our Lord is about.
Jesus Christ IS truth and loves truth. We should always seek it.
Lostvoice, I got rid of my evidence, too. You are not alone in that. I vascillate between that being stupid and wise. My entire life was immersed with people, including what family I have left, who were part of that world as leaders, so much was lost. It is a scary place but Jesus has never been so real. I don’t blame Him because our glorious God created us with free will. We choose to devalue ourselves by staying in deception or practicing it. Once we realize that, our choices are clear. And for some, that means driving a taxi like Pat did. God bless him for choosing truth which is a lasting legacy for his daughter.
I like this.
Julie, I am the friend who invited Shannon to the church in question. This thread has been going on since September 5, but I just found it early Tuesday morning (Sept. 23), and I have also made the decision to stop attending. I am so sorry for what happened to you. I’m sending you a friend request of my own, and I hope that your experience here telling your story ultimately turns out positive.