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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1080 comments
Julie, I am the friend who invited Shannon to the church in question. This thread has been going on since September 5, but I just found it early Tuesday morning (Sept. 23), and I have also made the decision to stop attending. I am so sorry for what happened to you. I’m sending you a friend request of my own, and I hope that your experience here telling your story ultimately turns out positive.
Lost Voice – I hear you. I didn’t save my paper trail for the same reason. But that experience enables me to recognize the patterns in Mars Hill and Emergent lickety-split and then help encourage those like Julie who are speaking out to keep preachng it. That’s what broke forth the Mars Hill story – there was a serious shift from outsiders telling what was wrong with Mark’s theology, etc. to those whe had been impacted sharing ther stories. Made all the difference.
@naked pastor: Re: “The alleged abused end up whistling in the dark to the sound of crickets blending with just the voices of agreement. Some people would point to this conversation and say, ‘Just a bunch of whiners. It’ll whither away soon.’ I definitely don’t believe this is true, because this conversation has started something significant. I’m not sure what yet, but that will become apparent soon I think.”
This resonates with me, David. Whether or not abusers own up to the abuse, apologize publicly or privately, or even take a moment to seriously reflect upon their past and present behaviors, something significant does occur when the evil deeds of darkness are brought into the light.
I believe that “this significant thing” occurs within the abused and mostly for the benefit of the abused. It takes strength to speak up and out when you have been battered, shamed, devastated, belittled, embarrassed, threatened, etc. It takes an enormous amount of courage to speak into a very public venue when you are accustomed to having every action, word, personality trait, and even idea quickly, harshly, and repeatedly attacked. Many significant things can happen through the brave act of speaking your truth (as I have learned through my own experiences as both the receiver and, unfortunately, the giver of emotional and spiritual abuse).
At first, when you find and use your voice, you feel empowered. There is an almost otherworldly relief in discovering that telling your story does not incur lightning from Heaven! You have been conditioned to believe that what you say, think, and feel counts for nothing—yet, because you have been threatened and warned and cautioned to shut up, you suspect that there is some kind of deadly power in your truth. You think that if you tell the secret, you will die. You finally can’t help it and shout out the truth. Of course, you don’t die. But your self-shame and self-loathing, and sometimes the power of the abuser, get a quick glimpse of the Grim Reaper. And when you realize that He’s working for you and with you, on behalf of the truth, your confidence builds.
Then, depending upon the response you do receive, you feel validated or invalidated. And there is almost always increased personal growth in either case. You finally can relax into the nurture and comfort of a safe space if you are validated. You feel an exciting sense of satisfaction at hearing that you are not the only one; you are actually heard and UNDERSTOOD. This creates a wonderful sense of community, increased compassion and trust, but it can also create new personal challenges related to genuine intimacy for one who has for so long been denied true relationship.
And in the opposite scenario, should you receive invalidation, several things may occur. You may be triggered right back into your “victim state” with all of its sadness and isolation. You might feel angry or righteously indignant that the Grim Reaper doesn’t appear willing to finish the job and take out the abuser. You might feel even more liberated with less inclination to back down because you now see that whatever the abuser does, it doesn’t matter to you anymore. You might become our own version of the Grim Reaper wielding a sharp sickle and swinging wide. What the abuser thinks doesn’t really matter to you anymore. What the abuser does becomes almost comical in a way. You don’t care; you just come at the abuse, swinging hard.
Each affirmation of truth builds the muscles of your identity; in a short time, you have developed some six-pack abs on what formerly felt like a flabby yellow belly and you feel like having learned to take care of you, you can now stand up for others too. Sometimes you become hellbent on preventing further abuse—in a way that may seem obnoxious to some who have not been on the receiving end of abuse, but is seen as necessary by those who know the pain of being forced into shadowy corners.
Sometimes, with the passage of time and deeper reflection, you might realize that what you were so sure of in terms of how you framed your past abuse, has become a little less clear. In my own case (and in no way am I saying that this is true for Julie or any other person who has been hushed up, tangled up or fucked up by an abusive system or a specific person), as I spoke my truth out loud to trusted friends and even a few strangers and unwitting passersby and heard their responses, I realized that I had formerly seen only part of the truth. My truth—in all of its glorious validity for me at the time—was a much smaller part of a much bigger truth. The significance for me in such instances, was that I was given the opportunity to forgive my abusers, the observers who stood by and did nothing, and yes, even myself. Seeing the larger picture forced me to struggle with the concepts of repentance, forgiveness, and redemption.
Like you, David, I believe that this post and lengthy comment thread is only the beginning of significant change. I’m SO grateful that you have allowed this conversation to flow unimpeded and that you have attempted as blog moderator to allow every voice to contribute to significant change. We are all blessed to get that powerful glimpse of the Reaper (perhaps incorrectly labeled “Grim”) and to see the amazing action of a sickle harvesting what is ready to be cut and clearing a space for, hopefully, even better crops.
Thank you, Julie! I friended you (I think that’s you anyways).
Shannon, thank you for adding your story to this collection. I am sorry that your Pastor did not hold your story as they should have. I like that you are listening to your truth when it tells you this does not feel right. I invite you and anyone else looking for a safe refuge to join the on line community here with David Hayward the Naked Pastor, The Lasting Supper. You will be warmly welcomed. Lost voice (found here) you too! The support in there is something special. A place to heal. Also, friend me on FB I am starting a NPD survivors group in the Twin Cities. There is nothing currently out there for us.