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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1080 comments
In some ways weighing in at this point of the game is a little daunting, but I have read almost all of the posts. Despite the many posts already, I feel like I have a few things to contribute to the conversation.
Julie- For the sake of disclosure, I am outing myself as a person who has survived a narcissistic spouse, relational violence and divorce. I would never want to co-opt your story and your pain. I hope that I can write this without doing that. I am so proud of you for being able to voice your truth and to do it even though you know that there are those who don’t get it and those who are still trying to discredit you. I am also proud of you for being able to support your children and take care of yourself while going through substantial litigation which resulted in both financial difficulties and was probably emotionally traumatic.
I know going through the custody process with my narcissist was hell. Mine lasted two years, during which we were assigned a custody advisor who analyzed both mine and my exes’ parenting skills and collected lots of personal and private information. This is not a process that the state of MN takes lightly and they are generally adamant that fathers continue to have visitation and share legal custody of their children. Actually, despite my having a protective order against my ex and being afraid for my own and my child’s safety, I was required to allow my ex to have visitation. I was even being pushed to try mediation. I declined knowing that mediation with a narcissist is never fruitful! For awhile my mother chaperoned the visitations until the school counselor informed CPS that my kid had reported being abused by my ex. Even though the custody evaluator was aware of this situation and compliant with the recommendations of CPS, she chewed me out and told me that she thought I was trying to discourage a relationship between my child and my child’s dad.
In the end, after much stalling my ex ran out of money for legal representation and had to defend himself in the final trial. All this to say that I believe your account of the divorce and custody proceedings and I know that if you got custody of your kids that you deserved it and your ex must have serious issues for things to go so “badly” for him. I consider my custody fight to be a pretty serious ordeal, but the public records of your divorce/custody proceedings are 3 times as long as mine (I looked them up before the link was posted). The only reason that I share my story is that people have no idea how difficult the custody process is and how much judges and custody advisors want to preserve the father/child relationship, even it puts the mother and children at risk to future harm from the abuser. I am glad your kids are doing well and seeking counseling to deal with having to continue to expose themselves to emotional abuse. This is a testimony to your parenting and to your care of them.
Before I escaped my abusive ex I was part of a church plant in the Twin Cities that was deeply involved in the ideas and philosophies of the emergent church movement, even though they did not name themselves as such because of being part of an evangelical denomination. My ex pastor liked to name drop some of the bigger names in the movement who he knew in some capacity. Before my ex left, my pastor was involved in covering up that my ex had stalked a woman and was pursuing several young women in the congregation. I had no knowledge of either of these things, but I had discovered salacious emails to several women. The confrontation I had with my ex over these emails accelerated my exe’s abuse and this precipitated the end of our relationship.
When I went to my pastor in search of pastoral care, he told me about my ex pursuing other women in the church. No steps had been taken to protect the woman who was stalked and she was discouraged from going to the police. This “pastoral care” just added salt to my wound. I continued attending this church for about 18 months after this mostly because there were still a few people in the church that were my support system. The support lessened as I pressed the pastor for a resolution or apology for how he handled things. I’m not sure if the pastor bad-mouthed me, but it seemed that people started to avoid me. I left quietly, like a good Minnesotan. No one wanted to know why I left. I tried out a few churches in the same denomination, but church felt like a scary place to be. Church should be a safe place, but it was no longer a safe place to me. It was a place that harbored abusers and evicted victims. Two years ago I gave up trying and took a year off church. I saw a counselor and feel like I healed a lot that year. I made some friends who were supportive and although many of them are Christians they supported me in my churchless phase.
A year ago a friend asked me to attend church with her and I opened myself to the possibility of trusting a pastor and church family again. I promised myself that I wouldn’t fully participate in a church unless the pastor or a significant staff member could listen to my story and offer me compassion. I was getting ready to have that conversation soon. Unfortunately (or fortunately) I no longer need to have that conversation because I am certain that my story would not be heard due to comment that were made by this person in response to Julie way early on in this discussion. I cannot function under or alongside a pastor who would allow Julie to be treated this way. Thank you Julie for sharing your story, which allowed me to recognize some signs that I had been trying to ignore and to get out now.
@Danica, thanks for being open about your process and journey! It’s a good thing for me to see those dynamics too. and, btw, you weren’t one of the people I was talking about either.
@John Hubanks, thanks for seeking to understand. I know I don’t always communicate well. In fact, there have been times that I look back on and really regret the way I’ve communicated with people (IRL and virtual). So, thanks responding and letting me clarify.
Danica, I completely agree with you…this is a collective story of people who have been kicked to the side, marginalized and silenced. It’s not okay and we are speaking up!
Checking back in, so glad to see this thread going strong. I specifically want to address Nathan – I agree with you that All The COmments are distracting … but for me (I’ve commented a lot on this thread), I’ve honestly commented for myself. I needed to be able to confront the Strong Male Leader and I feel like this thread has been one more step in my journey to finding and practicing my voice. So I guess I would like you to know that it’s not just about Julie and her story, but about lots of other peopel in what seems to be almost a mass catharsis.
Also, your typos are totally fine by me :)
Lost voice, some people are never happy, and will always try to convince you that you are lost, and have lost.
But you took action to protect yourself and move on. That is courageous, and shows inner strength.