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Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?
This drawing is inspired by the Ouroboros Snake... of the snake eating its own tail.
What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The thug or the theology? I read Tony Jones' thoughts on Mark Driscoll.
Jones has always admired Driscoll, maybe envies him a little, wants the best for him, believes he can be redeemed, and suggests that things can be restored.
What I found most interesting though is that Jones believes the problem with Driscoll is theological.
- He titles his post is "Thoughts about Mark Driscoll"
- He talks about the "heady" days of publishing and speaking.
- He dismisses his disturbing personality traits by his use of the word "sure".
- He says it isn't a moral issue (evil) but that he is passionate.
- He says more than once that Driscoll is "extremely smart" or "brilliant".
- He suggests that he will "see" (as in "think"?) his way out of this.
- He writes that Driscoll has just embraced a toxic version of theology.
- He hopes that Driscoll will turn away from this toxic theology.
- He concludes therefore that Driscoll is not the problem, but his theology.
But my question is‚ What came first? The thug or the theology?
That is, did Driscoll become the focus of concern because of his theology? Or was it because of his behavior?
I'm concerned that Jones' post reflects the refusal of the church to understand spiritual abuse. It neglects the pathology of its abusive leaders. I don't think this is being fair to the victims or the perpetrators of spiritual abuse. People are victims of not just a bad theology, but a pathological cruelty.
I don't think Driscoll's theology made this happen. Driscoll "embraced" his toxic version of theology because it aligned with his moral compass. It fit his personality. It worked for him to achieve his goals. Then it manifested the worst in him. Then he continued to develop his toxic theology in order to make more room for his pathological behavior. Mars Hill Church too.
Jones' sentence, "It could have happened to any of us." is true, because I believe we all participate in this dynamic. Theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires.
Then, not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires, it also becomes the producer of them. Theology is a vicious cycle of our desperate need to understand and control our universe.
Step into this cycle at any point and you can see that we are both the root and fruit of our theology and pathology.
And yes, it spins out of control by manifesting itself in toxic, controlling, and abusive behavior. Nothing can be done about bad theology because of free thought and speech.
But we can do something when this manifests itself in bad behavior. Cruel theology is a nuisance. Cruel behavior is unacceptable.
When Driscoll thinks bully to his people, we can say please stop. But when he actually bullies people, we can step in and say you will stop now!
I don't think this is a theological issue. I think it is a pathological one. Not just for Driscoll and Jones, but for the entire church.
If we would be healed, our theology would take care of itself.
1079 comments
@Claire,
Not just you – it’s actual bullshit.
What you’re being told is standard fare to keep people in abusive relationships. He doesn’t know, he can’t help it, he doesn’t mean it, he can’t control himself, whatever. You know what? You don’t have to prove those are false because the damage is the same either way. Get yourself out of danger. And don’t buy into the common one that friends say that it’s okay for them to stick around because it isn’t directly affecting them or their family. That’s like saying, “We have this paedophile that wants to teach Sunday School, but I’m okay with it because my kids aren’t in that class.” It simply doesn’t matter whether they mean it or not, just get out of harm’s way.
I’ve had that question from a pastor: “whose authority are you under?”
I should have said “Jesus’ authority”.
Because being under anyone else’s certainly hasn’t worked out well…
Claire,
If someone has to cite their “authority” over you, claiming a warped interpretation of Hebrews 13:7 perhaps — run, don’t walk to the exits. And the not “malicious intent/bad person” comments are just a smoke screen for his bad behaviour.
In the book, Wisdom of Psychopaths, the number 8 position that Psychopaths are drawn to is church leadership. Don’t be shocked if this is what you’ve encountered.
Hi there, I have just been observing this dialogue silently and from a distance. I have no connection with any parties involved. This blog post was referred to me because I’m experiencing a very mild form of what I consider pastoral abuse as I try to leave a church I’ve been in for many years. It’s nothing like what Julie has described (I am so sorry for her. It’s absolutely chilling) However, some parts are ringing a bell…..
Like the part about women-blaming and shaming combined with the pastor digging up offenses from the past, referencing an emotional distance he feels from us as we leave, citing his own pastoral involvement and authority in the decisions of our lives up to this point, threatening to talk to the pastor of the church we’re visiting to share his “concerns,” and suggesting that I’m just a weak mess of emotions and that’s why I can’t handle the life-sucking horror that has become sundays at this church.
Does anyone know if there are certain personality types that are more prone to narcissistic behavior? And the types that are more susceptible to fall for it?
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to combat the idea that “he’s not doing it on purpose” therefore I shouldn’t be hurt by it? I keep getting told that the pastor isn’t manipulative “with malicious intent” so I shouldn’t be so alarmed that it’s happening and he’s “not a bad person”…Is it just me or does that sound like bull shit? So…as long as he’s ignorant of his own behavior he can get away with it? How does that make any sense? Ugh.
Anyone have any thoughts? Thanks for this thread. On the one hand, it’s really helpful because it makes me feel less alone, even though my experience is much less severe. On the other hand, I’m just chilled to the core. Wow. :(
@Lost Voice said, [["I have always found it interesting and frustrating in the conversation about spiritual abuse and/or other type of abuse within the Emergent circles of how women and men in the “inner circle” use “they have always been nice…..” “They have always been up standing….”]]
I edited a friend’s book on her experiences surviving domestic violence. She took inspiration for her title from an incident where she was at a gala community function. As the husband of the woman seated next to her rose and went forward to the podium, the wife turned to my friend and whispered, “He hits.” The man was receiving the mayor’s Citizen of the Year Award.
@Brother Maynard said, [[It is very characteristic of some types of psychopathy, including NPD, that the affected person would portray drastically differing personalities to different people in different contexts. This is not a form of MPD at all – it’s wilful. Once the individual has no further use for or finds they can no longer manipulate someone, their treatment of that person can change to polar opposites. Basically, once they can’t get what they want or no longer need anything from someone, there’s no longer any need for a charming front]]
Wow, was that a trigger to some nasty flashbacks … I went back to the survey I filled out in 2008 for Barb Orlowski’s doctoral research on church and ministry leaders who’d been subjected to authoritarian control/abuse by other leaders. I found the notes I was looking for, where another co-leader and I (both of us were the brunt of severe treatment) eventually got back together to talk. He’d been kicked out and shunned about a year before I finally felt the freedom to leave.
My friend said, "[PASTOR’S NAME] kept people around as ‘options.’ "
I said, "He treated staff like okay-for-now, but always kept his eye out for ‘upgrades.’ "
No one really seemed to see that early on but us … because he mostly had his nice/happy face on. Gradually many others saw his not-so-happy face. He went through at least 3 or 4 children’s ministers and 6 or 7 worship leaders in just the first 3 years — most of them leaving because they were creeped out, burned out, or sold out. Those, he brutalized as he had us two. Meanwhile, I learned that good people, bright people, nice people can be quite taken in by someone with no conscience, no compassion, and no remorse.