Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?

AnImpartialObserver-I think writing my story would be the best way to get all of the details accurate and would need to go back and refer to emails. Who are you? If you have that detail I guess I would like to know who I am answering to. Or are you not so impartial? I can tell you that we were never separated. He was police escorted out of the home. right before Labor day and the first day of school for the kids. (Nice, I know). Our divorce was November 16, 2009. Doug WAS my Pastor but I had begin to realize this was all becoming bullshit and began attending mass with my parents as support as he was mostly an absent father and husband at that point. I sought Doug as my Pastor not knowing he would use what I knew to cover his own ass. I told him about the EV website and then Steve Knight was asked to scrub it and the HE did it himself. I do think Brad Cecil was played and maybe the others but I am 100% confident Doug Pagitt sat on information and needed me to check in to a hospital to make the affair, divorce rationalized. HE knew fully. The previous December 2007 there was an on line exchange between the two about her new website….“Your opinion is the one I care most about.” “It is beautiful like you.” I was told I was “insecure, paranoid, just good friends.” Then the frequent trips to Dallas and the new persona….“they” say when your husband is having an affair there are the top ten signs….he had every one. Sudden change in music taste, started dressing like a cowboy (seriously), locked his cell phone, slammed the laptop down when I came in the room, started locking his laptop in the car. He admitted it in the psych eval and custody eval, “I’m casually dating a couple women.” So, my attorney sopoened her in Dallas, Texas during Discovery to find out information and about assets. A lawyer for HER was hired and an Injunction to have it stopped. Someone didn’t want anyone to be asking questions down in Dallas. But the cell phone records confirmed daily contact between the two beginning May 2008. The canceled check I have made out to Suzanne Gradnchamp his lawyer was dated June. So, her lied to the 6 about “doing everything in his power to save his marriage.” They were played. I’d be pissed too. But not at ME at the person who played me. When his lawyer called my lawyer to settle he was spending a large amount of time in Dallas. So he said he would give me sole physical and sole legal. I actually said NO because I wanted to keep him on the hook for being a dad. Then to get at me anyway he possibly can he launched multiple runs at flipping custody. Claiming me an unfit mother. Those were all denied. Then his latest launch is I am a criminal. His pathology makes him relentless! I think he should focus on his spiritual mate. If I were her I would so clearly see his inability to let me go. I have big reasons to distrust his world so I wonder strongly of you may be one cleverly disguised to probe. Who are you? Obviously close enough to be privy to an email.

Oh, one more thing. You’ve mentioned having a copy of the letter that the discernment group sent you, and Brad Cecil has suggested that it would be really helpful for you to post that here. Would you be willing to do that for us? I’m sure it would help us all understand better what exactly was going on behind the scenes. Thanks!

Bam! matybigfro! Thank you for seeing what is so obvious and yet so utterly denied.

“If a Woman voice and opinion was valued as much as a man’s then a ‘discernment’ process would never have been entered into without the presence of the Woman’s testimony.

A Woman’s pain would have been valued and listened to more than a man’s continued productivity and usefulness, follow would have been committed to rather than left up to others.

A Woman’s continued cry’s for redress, for recognition of her abuse and situation would not have been repeatedly ignored or simply written off as ‘crazyness’

This misogyny was clearly as present in EV as it was in MH and probably has been here, only be naming and accepting that is the case can we hope to move on in a way that is free from it’s odious influence."

Long-time lurker, first time poster here. I just wanted thank Julie for being so forthright in sharing so many painful personal experiences with a blog full of perfect strangers. I’m sure it can’t be easy. I also want to thank you for bringing into the light so much that has remained obscure over the years. I followed all this closely back 5-6 years ago when it first happened, but not being directly connected to any of the significant players, and with only whispered rumors circulating on blogs, there was so much that just remained vague and uncertain. As an outside internet observer, it was hard to piece together what exactly had gone on and no one seemed to know the full story.

To be honest, I’m still finding it a little difficult to put all the pieces together though. Much of what you’ve said so far here has come only in snippets and scattered comments, without the whole narrative laid out in order, so I’m having trouble piecing together the timeline of events. (Have you considered starting your own blog where you could tell the whole thing in order? That would be so helpful!) Anyhow I’m so grateful to you for being willing to put it all out there. Now perhaps we can finally get the full story! Would you mind if I asked you a few questions to help us sort out the details, sequence, etc.?

1) When I was digging into this whole thing 4 or 5 years ago I ended up coming across a copy of the email you sent to a few dozen emergent leaders back in July of 2008 asking for their help in getting Tony home from the Rolling Roadshow. (The one Darren King above mentioned receiving I believe. Don’t know if you still have a copy, but I’d be happy to post a copy here of the text I’ve obtained if you think it would be helpful!) In that letter or perhaps a follow up to it, you mentioned that you and Tony had already been living separately for four years by that point. You have also mentioned in this thread that Tony met with a divorce lawyer sometime around that same time (i.e. summer of 2008). I guess what I’m wondering is at what point you or he actually filed for divorce? I am I correct to assume that from 2004-2008 you were separated but both still had hopes of restoring the marriage? At what point did you and/or he give up on that hope and decide to actively pursue divorce instead? I’m especially wondering about this in relation to the timeline of Tony’s relationship with Courtney. At what point did he meet her and at what point do you suspect that an affair began? What, for instance, was the date on the flirtatious emails between them that you’ve mentioned? To the best of your knowledge, at what point did people like Doug or any of the people on the “discernment group” become aware of their relationship (and did everyone know at first, or just Doug)? And at what point in this whole process did Doug make that “spiritual wife” comment to you? Was it before or after the divorce proceedings began? Any specifics you can give would be so very helpful in making sense of the conflicting accounts of all this that I’ve found out there – for instance, the folks who insist that Tony and Courtney’s relationship didn’t begin until after the divorce was final, or at least already in process. Any light you can shed would be very helpful, especially in piecing together who knew what, when, and who, if anyone, was possibly involved in covering things up. That’s a serious charge and I think it’s important for all of us to know more. Thanks!

2) In that same email that you sent to the emergent leaders in 2008, you said “I need a goodwill offering from [Tony] by an ACTION. I have had 11 years of empty words. the only way I am not going to throw in the marriage towel is if he cuts bait NOW inconveniences his sponsors, publisher, groupies, the ego of Doug and get home to fix his family in a state of shear devastation.” This seems to match what Brad Cecil said about the request for intervention coming directly from you, and the only request on your part at the time being to get Tony to leave the tour early and come home to Minnesota. I can understand why you would be dismayed about not being included in the meeting where he and the others met with Tony to convince him to do exactly that. After they responded to this initial email did you specifically ask to be included in their conversation with Tony or were they under the impression that all you wanted from them was to talk to Tony and get him to come home?

3) In that same email you also said “I was never invited in the [Emergent] club and my children and I attend Catholic church and I am their spiritual educator at home.” Forgive me if I’m misreading you here, but that makes it sound like you weren’t ever really a part of the emergent movement yourself and that you attended a different church than Tony at the time. Am I reading that wrong? In this thread you have repeatedly referred to Doug Pagitt as your pastor. Since much of your obvious hurt seems to stem from Doug’s actions too, I was hoping you could clarify when exactly you attended Solomon’s Porch? At what point was he your pastor and when did that relationship end? Was it before you and Tony separated in 2004, or were you still a part of Doug’s church after that?

4) In this thread you’ve both said that Tony has threatened to take the kids away from you and also said that he didn’t want custody and that you had to force him into a standard visitation schedule. Was that a change over time? Did he start out not wanting the kids but then change his mind later and demanded to have them exclusively? Forgive me if all that is too painful for you to recount, but if you could lay out more clearly how all that fits together, I think we would all be grateful.

5) I definitely agree that the main issue in this thread is not the details of your divorce (so please forgive me for wanting to get some of those facts straight first), but rather what you’ve seen as the intentional cover-up of Tony’s affair and gaslighting campaign by Emergent leadership. That’s a really big deal! I guess what I’m not clear on is what exactly is the evidence that there was a “deliberate and coordinated” campaign to that effect. We’ve already seen Brad Cecil, Brian McLaren, and Danielle Shroyer explicitly say here that there was no such intent or campaign on their part. I’ve really appreciated the effort here at this blog to not dismiss the direct testimony of people when speaking their truth (yourself foremost among them!) so I’m inclined to take them at their word. Todd Hiestand and Mike Morrell did confess to having used the “bat shit crazy” term, but I don’t recall them saying that they did it as part of any deliberate campaign – just that they were passing on hearsay or perhaps reflecting their own opinions at the time. So could you clarify who exactly was involved in this deliberate campaign and how you heard that it was a coordinated effort and not just the usual spread of gossip and hearsay? I think this is probably the most important issue under discussion at this blog, so I’d like for all of us to be on the same page about what the facts and evidence are for this conspiracy. Thank you in advance for clearing this up!

I hope that’s not too many questions to barrage you with. These were just the things I’ve been wondering about as I try to piece together all the various things I’ve read here and around the blogosphere over the years. As a concerned and curious observer I am very glad for the opportunity to clear up all the misunderstanding and confusion that has surrounded these events for the past six years. Again, thank you for being so open and honest about all of this. It has been refreshing!

Tim and Taylor-I too have compassion for this mental illness as it must be a living hell to be devoid of empathy. To have to live a life with a false persona because deep down you have irreconcilable feelings of inadequacy. However, If one is presented with the reality of such a condition and denies it, there is not a lot bystanders can do. That is why I foolishly thought those is leadership would do the right thing but instead they turned on me.