Tony Jones on Mark Driscoll: What came first, the thug or the theology?

My apologies for not responding sooner. Was out taking my kids to sports practices. I didn’t introduce myself because frankly I’m not really anyone… I mean not anyone important in these circles. Not a blogger. Not a pastor. Barely even a churchgoer anymore. My name is Alex though, and I have been an observer and participant in emergent stuff for a long time, but never in a central way, just someone who reads and watches and shows up at events occasionally. I casually know one of the people you sent that email to back in 2008 (was in a cohort with him at the time), so when all of this stuff started to come out around then I asked him if he knew anything. He forwarded that email to me but said that since he had never met you and you had just emailed him out of the blue, that that was all he really knew about the situation. Like I said before, at the time I read as much as I could find on blogs and such, but all I could find out about it all was from vague online comments and that email. Pretty much forgot about it until I saw this thread, so I went back and dug up all that old information. It was hard to reconcile some of what I saw in those other sources with what you were saying here, so I figured I’d just ask for your version of events directly. I’m sorry if that came across as threatening or intrusive. You’ve been so open thus far about everything that I didn’t think you’d mind shedding a little more light for those of us who are still confused. My apologies.

But thank you for answering some of those questions already! It is helpful to get a little more details about the timeline of events. I agree, it definitely seems like the two of them had some kind of flirtation going on for most of 2008. I still do wonder who else knew about it and when.

And thanks for clarifying about the living separately for four years thing. I didn’t realize from the email I saw that you were speaking metaphorically. I guess I had wondered if the people who defended Tony and Courtney’s relationship were working with an earlier date of when you and he had split, so your clarification is immensely helpful. Thank you for that.

If you do still feel like answering any of my other questions, I’m most interested in #5. Like I said (and I think most here would agree with me) the possibility of a deliberate conspiracy/cover-up by Emergent leaders is the most troubling thing that I’ve heard here so far. Any specific evidence you can point to for that would be very appreciated!

-Alex

MatyBigFro? Haven’t heard that in a while. How’s the fro?

Hi Donna, thanks for putting your story out. There’s a few issues here but let me try to tackle the main ones.

Firstly, Denver. Thanks for your generous offer to stay at your home in 2010. I am sorry I am such a bad communicator. I just looked up those (unanswered) Facebook messages and they are there in my box, although they say Facebook and not Donna so i can see why i might have not noticed them – esp. since we were driving across USA with Debbie and the 4 kids in a station wagon and were struggling for wifi and electricity. As you know, we had accepted an offer from someone else and chose to stay there rather than doing the rounds among the Denver crowd – which wears Debbie thin. And since we were living out of our backpacks for 7 months, we were pretty exhausted and not functioning well on the road.
I am afraid I am still not good at communications and still mess it up in this area. Pray for me.

Secondly, Your daughter. Like other missionary kids we have taken and sponsored to travel with us, we do not take them unless they are 18 and have their parents permission. We felt from email correspondence that we had this from both of you. And she was 18. If you remember, I advised going slower and later, and also advised the postponement of her trip which is why she did not come to Germany but rather to Hungary some months later. We chose Hungary because I promised Wolf that we would pick her up in a safe city and safe country – which is why the whole team was hanging out in Budapest. The possible medical emergencies you outlined were helpful and Debbie (who was an RN and high-risk child specialist) felt she could handle it. Thankfully, no such emergencies arose and she had a wonderful time. It was a joy to have her. Actually she FB’ed us a few minutes ago and wants to spend time with us next week in Portland. She and our daughter Liz are such good friends. We thank God for her.

Thirdly, Wolf. Yes, the bastard cheated on you and then lied to his mission accountability group and then went back to his vomit. Cant tell you what a disappointment that was to us all. No excuse. He called me on the phone to confess and told me everything. Not only did he break up his family, but he also really screwed up some projects we were working with and gave our organization a BIG BLACK EYE!

Of course this is not on the same level as your own painful process and the family break-up and the kids. I only add it to say that Wolf messed things up for a lot of us, not just your family.

We were aware of his repentance and restoration process including time away from ministry and intense counseling in Spain, etc. A few years later, when the restoration process was more complete, he offered the full story to both Debbie and I and spoke for an hour. Debbie says he offered “too much” but you should know that he took full responsibility and never ever EVER hinted it was your fault. He never even said anything bad about you or negative in any way. We never even heard an excuse for his sin, only brokenness and shame. He never said anything about spiritual wife or legal wife – I would have hit the roof and slapped him silly if he said that in the same way I exploded at Tony and Doug when I heard it. The spiritual wife heresy is what split one of the emerging groups in Europe and is a sore point for me.

Yes, Wolf is back to ministry now and in my opinion he is less of an asshole, more broken, more humble, and still shamed at how he destroyed his family, but also happy to have his hand to the plow. i believe his repentance was genuine and have observed godly behavior in his life. I stand by him. My wife believes him and trusts him and she is a better judge of character than I. [When she met Mark Driscoll in 1997 she said he was a “future cult-leader” and she was never happy about me hanging out with the Young Leaders Group.]

So, even if it is still a bit messy, there is a place for fallen broken men to get up again and make something of their crappy lives, even for them to enter into God’s service once more, albeit on a different level or with a different posture. I see Wolf as one of those people.

But Donna if you have more information that you feel I should look at, please email it or just post it below, I am sure David has more space on this long thread which is proving to be a safe place for so many to tell their stories.

Thank you, Nate. I truly appreciate your support. It is the good an decent people that can smell the stink a mile away. Ironically, the ones who refuse to believe this….I could not care less about because I have absolutely zero respect for them or their theology. Where is the fruit? It’s not there. Again, the litmus test for a narcissist or a highly dysfunctional interlocked system (xian author/speaker/conference circuit minor celebrities) is the ability to admit wrong, apologize and move forward. They. Can’t. Do. It.

Nate is not my name. I don’t want to use my name because I’m afraid of being sued. I can’t afford it. I have been observing this thread for awhile. I live in the Twin Cities and know several of the parties involved. I am very familiar with this situation and I believe Julie. Her name has been smeared by people who need to discredit her at all costs in order to preserve their status as “religious” leaders and to protect their livelihoods. She has every right to be angry. She has been treated horribly by folks who claim to be followers of Christ. It is sick and wrong. I finally decided to weigh in after seeing the post by AnimpartialObserver. His post points to how evil these people are and the lengths to which they will go in order to perpetuate the lies. AnimprtialObsever is one of them. How do I know? I know because his questions are grounded in a false narrative I have heard repeated over and over again ever since Julie was identified as one who might cause them trouble. These people are sick. They have maintained control over the story through intimidation and threats and leveraged their platforms and status to lend credibility to the lies. I’m glad Julie has finally found a place where her side of the story can be told. I believe her.

@impartialobserver is employing the same tactics the emergent boys used to cyberbully me. Nothing new. It’s how they roll. SNAFU. :)

@matybigfro Apology accepted. A major factor in my admitted outbursts was incredulity that people I thought were friends kept pulling Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde moves after they got a taste of the media spotlight. As I had covered Xn carnage for the Door from 1994 till the rag shut down the website in 2008, I “thought” (silly me) that they’d welcome my critique so they could avoid becoming like those branded Christian celebrities/religious rock stars we had both satirized only to become that which they once despised once they hit the author/speaker circuit. Also, as noted, I apologized for those times when my anger got the better of me but in hindsight, I see I was exhibiting signs of prologued trauma and abuse not signs of mental illness (like most of NYC I got tested post 9/11 and there’s no signs of mental illness though my childhood growing up with two alcoholic parents who died before I was 18 does produce some triggers that I now know how to manage so I don’t let my anger get the better of me).

I would ask though that I not be lumped with Stephanie/SCCL – while her critiques of Tony are spot on, she has gone gonzo on those women who dared to also critique Pete and Jay especially during the whole Phyllis Tickle debacle – these three boys’ history of on and offline bullying is godawful. You can’t separate one from the other – it all needs to be exposed and called on the carpet. I know all too well how difficult it is to realize that someone who was once a peer and perhaps even a friend is now part of this bully brigade. It truly is akin to watching someone succumb to drugs/alcohol as the person you once knew simply isn’t there anymore. And if you don’t see what I’m referencing, it’s because they’re putting on their Dr. Jekyll face hoping you’ll continue to endorse and support them. But watch because the moment you critique their Xn crapola Mr. Hyde comes out with a vengeance.

Speaking of coming out, notice all the US emergent players and those who ply their wares who are silent during this debate. Also, be sure to check out the funding streams of those offering half-ass apologies, non-apologies and gaslighting Julie (and a few others on this thread). That speaks volumes.